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The problem is that a single unlocked door led to the unavoidable termination of these animals. There were no attempts to lure them back to the enclosure (to w

by chasil 3y ago

The problem is that a single unlocked door led to the unavoidable termination of these animals. There were no attempts to lure them back to the enclosure (to which they would likely have returned due to the low temperature), no other attempts at capture, and no other plan than termination. When escape of the enclosure is a lethal threat, then the enclosure needs greater protections to prevent mandatory termination. There should be at least three levels of containment, using doors with mechanisms that the animals cannot manipulate. Facilities that cannot meet these containment standards should be forced to surrender them to those who can.

suzzer99 3y ago
This is what bothers me the most. Design the system so it doesn't rely on keepers remembering to lock doors. For one shift door to open, everything else must be locked down.
- vanattab 3y ago
  I would think that may violate fire codes no?
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Automatic closing and locking doors with keypads. There, problem solved without getting into double door “airlocks”.
tptacek 3y ago
Part of the calculus behind shooting them appears to have been the likelihood that they would have suffered a worse death from the cold if they didn't return to the building, and with the light failing, the opportunity to spare them that death was passing.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 3y ago
    They're extremely intelligent animals that can, to a first approximation, in a built environment, move along any axis at over 20MPH. You're probably putting more faith in the power of flashlights than the experts did.
- chasil 3y ago
  I don't think that was a factor at all. They likely would have returned to their enclosures because of the cold. "Many other experts have pointed out that since chimpanzees do not like the cold, they would have been likely to return to the ape house." The risk to human life was the paramount concern. 'Beldt told me he had relived those days perhaps 1,000 times, wondering if they could have done anything different. Every time, he comes to the same conclusion: no. Chimpanzees can turn, and the line between play and violence is thin. Beldt remembers a time when he sat talking to Linda through the bars of the enclosure, and Manda snuck up and jabbed him with a stick she had sharpened with her teeth, just centimetres from his left eye. '“People without any experience of chimpanzees say: if I had done it, I would have got some bananas, and they would have gone back,” Beldt said. “And maybe, but maybe not. Maybe you would have ended up in a body bag, or in 1,000 body bags, because chimps like to tear things from limb to limb.”'
  - scythe 3y ago
    Most animals are more dangerous when they are in what they perceive as "their territory" versus the field. A dog that is very timid on walks might jump on visitors to their house; bees that fiercely defend their hives will rarely sting when foraging; maybe you can think of other examples.
  - RationalDino 3y ago
    I read that as, "Person who made bad decisions concludes that there was no alternative but the bad decisions made." The former keeper should have been given a chance to try. Sign a waiver, the keeper knows the risks. If the chimps leave the zoo, then shoot them. But not when they are in the ape enclosure. And for Pete's sake. Don't put people who want to run rollercoasters in charge of animal welfare.
    - chasil 3y ago
      She wasn't an employee at that point. It likely wasn't possible.
      - 3y ago
- PeterisP 3y ago
  Chimps aren't so stupid that they would freeze to death a few minutes away from a warm place they know.
pvaldes 3y ago
> The problem is that a single unlocked door led to the termination of the animals. The problem is that this "can't" happen. Zoo animals in harsh climates always sleep indoors in a big inner room heated. This main room can be accessed by a minimum of 2 doors. One (or several) leads to the external part of the exhibition. This play area will typically have a moat, that gradually gets deeper, and a high wall. Chimps are poor swimmers (they sink like a rock on water) and the wall is designed to avoid escapes. If the animals escape to this enclosure they can't proceed further and are not a danger for the public so shooting them wouldn't have any sense. The other door leads typically to a small logistics area, used to store needed stuff (brooms, fresh hay etc) or to interact with the animals safely. This small hall is accessed trough a second locked door. Sometimes you can't open the room door without locking first the pre-cage door. The design encourages having at least one locked door at any time. The building itself will typically have a main door, the third, to allow access from the outside One unlocked door means that the chimps will be contained in the broom's hall. Even with two unlocked doors this could end with the chimps trapped inside as long as you have solid windows (as expected in Sweden). In this case both locks were left opened at the same time, two or maybe three doors unlocked by night, in the middle of a harsh weather (any opened door would lead to a noticeable chill air current inside the building, or even maybe to the electronic heater system triggering automatically an alarm)

by chasil 3y ago

suzzer99 3y ago

This is what bothers me the most. Design the system so it doesn't rely on keepers remembering to lock doors. For one shift door to open, everything else must be locked down.

vanattab 3y ago
I would think that may violate fire codes no?
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
Automatic closing and locking doors with keypads. There, problem solved without getting into double door “airlocks”.

tptacek 3y ago

Part of the calculus behind shooting them appears to have been the likelihood that they would have suffered a worse death from the cold if they didn't return to the building, and with the light failing, the opportunity to spare them that death was passing.

ipaddr 3y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 3y ago
  They're extremely intelligent animals that can, to a first approximation, in a built environment, move along any axis at over 20MPH. You're probably putting more faith in the power of flashlights than the experts did.
chasil 3y ago
I don't think that was a factor at all. They likely would have returned to their enclosures because of the cold. "Many other experts have pointed out that since chimpanzees do not like the cold, they would have been likely to return to the ape house." The risk to human life was the paramount concern. 'Beldt told me he had relived those days perhaps 1,000 times, wondering if they could have done anything different. Every time, he comes to the same conclusion: no. Chimpanzees can turn, and the line between play and violence is thin. Beldt remembers a time when he sat talking to Linda through the bars of the enclosure, and Manda snuck up and jabbed him with a stick she had sharpened with her teeth, just centimetres from his left eye. '“People without any experience of chimpanzees say: if I had done it, I would have got some bananas, and they would have gone back,” Beldt said. “And maybe, but maybe not. Maybe you would have ended up in a body bag, or in 1,000 body bags, because chimps like to tear things from limb to limb.”'
- scythe 3y ago
  Most animals are more dangerous when they are in what they perceive as "their territory" versus the field. A dog that is very timid on walks might jump on visitors to their house; bees that fiercely defend their hives will rarely sting when foraging; maybe you can think of other examples.
- RationalDino 3y ago
  I read that as, "Person who made bad decisions concludes that there was no alternative but the bad decisions made." The former keeper should have been given a chance to try. Sign a waiver, the keeper knows the risks. If the chimps leave the zoo, then shoot them. But not when they are in the ape enclosure. And for Pete's sake. Don't put people who want to run rollercoasters in charge of animal welfare.
  - chasil 3y ago
    She wasn't an employee at that point. It likely wasn't possible.
    - 3y ago
PeterisP 3y ago
Chimps aren't so stupid that they would freeze to death a few minutes away from a warm place they know.

pvaldes 3y ago

> The problem is that a single unlocked door led to the termination of the animals. The problem is that this "can't" happen. Zoo animals in harsh climates always sleep indoors in a big inner room heated. This main room can be accessed by a minimum of 2 doors. One (or several) leads to the external part of the exhibition. This play area will typically have a moat, that gradually gets deeper, and a high wall. Chimps are poor swimmers (they sink like a rock on water) and the wall is designed to avoid escapes. If the animals escape to this enclosure they can't proceed further and are not a danger for the public so shooting them wouldn't have any sense. The other door leads typically to a small logistics area, used to store needed stuff (brooms, fresh hay etc) or to interact with the animals safely. This small hall is accessed trough a second locked door. Sometimes you can't open the room door without locking first the pre-cage door. The design encourages having at least one locked door at any time. The building itself will typically have a main door, the third, to allow access from the outside One unlocked door means that the chimps will be contained in the broom's hall. Even with two unlocked doors this could end with the chimps trapped inside as long as you have solid windows (as expected in Sweden). In this case both locks were left opened at the same time, two or maybe three doors unlocked by night, in the middle of a harsh weather (any opened door would lead to a noticeable chill air current inside the building, or even maybe to the electronic heater system triggering automatically an alarm)