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In EU, Teslas were cool toys at the beginning but now it got this image of "that stupid Musk's product" and people are slowly but surely drifting away from it,

In EU, Teslas were cool toys at the beginning but now it got this image of "that stupid Musk's product" and people are slowly but surely drifting away from it, especially considering the competition catching up. Surely, this other union thing is not going to improve the brand image.

zpeti 3y ago
You are literally making up numbers (Edit: facts) to fit your narrative on Musk. Well done. Teslas are doing just fine in Europe: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ Almost no-one I know cares about what Musk says on twitter, they just want an good electric car, and they buy them. The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-europe-s-best-selling-car-in-2023 https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-... Please - at least look up figures before posting stuff like this. Edit: it’s amazing I’m getting downvoted on HN which is supposedly a scientific community. The person I was replying to made claims which were wrong which I point out with numbers. Yet people are so obsessed with hating musk they downvote me.
- tobr 3y ago
  No numbers were mentioned in the comment you are replying to.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. Comparing model sales doesn’t make a lot sense. Tesla only offers 2 different models in the 40-60k range. Now look at VW and then add very similar cars from Skoda, Audi and Cupra. Of course your’e still right Tesla’s market share in Europe has only been growing over the last couple of years.
  - peebeebee 3y ago
    Tesla model Y is selling like cakes here in Belgium. Lots of electric cars have waiting lists that can easily be a few months. Tesla has no problems here. Ordered mine, got it one week later. Tesla Model Y is also still the one of the best in terms of price vs value. Imho the only real competitors are the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 at the moment, but the model Y has them beaten in numbers on almost every front.
    - willvarfar 3y ago
      (happy EV6 owner; would recommend :) )
      - kyriakos 3y ago
        Happy ioniq 5 owner. Recommended.
- gafage 3y ago
  Reminds me of how overstated the volkswagen emissions scandal is here in HN. In real life no one gives a shit.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Probably because IRL, people have their own burdens to worry about like their families, careers and paying the bills. Going after a trillion dollar corporation slowly killing them with invisible particles is not first on their agenda but delegate it to the states to handle as that's their responsibility because that's why they pay taxes. The states which don't really do much against major corporations of that size but slap them of the wrist.
  - peebeebee 3y ago
    I do. I will be a lot more hesitant buying a 'green' vehicle from a company that 1) did not give a damn about switching to electric before Elon transformed the industry. 2) even lied about the pollution they created. Consumers wanted electric cars a long time ago, those old-timers just denied us because it would've hurt their short-term profits.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      ... Eh? The first eGolf (ignoring weirdo historical electric Golf variants; VW has occasionally dabbled since the 70s) was delivered a year before the first Tesla S, though for a pilot scheme in California; they didn't hit normal retail til a year or so after. The eUp came out in the same timeframe. Commercial deliveries of Tesla Ses, eUps, and eGolfs all started within a couple of months of each other. By the time Tesla got around to launching an electric car that didn't cost like 100,000 EUR, VW had been making such cars for years. I think VW maybe made a marketing mistake by making the eGolf and eUp so... non-obvious (there was really almost no way to tell they weren't a normal Golf/Up from the outside); it lead people to believe that the ID.3/4/5 were their first electric cars.
- eddtries 3y ago
  Fwiw in Sweden I get a company car and was considering Tesla but this Union issue has meant I no longer trust the level of service I will get long term & probably will get a Polestar instead. It is having some effect because, in my opinion, he is likely to decide to just up and leave one day and I’ll have a non-serviceable car. There’s not many automotive CEOs, if any, where that’s a consideration for me apart from Tesla and it does stem from his Twitter persona & rash decisions/going back on things a lot.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    How does it stem from his persona, and not your countries unions? Unions can break whole industries if they're allowed to, and have done many times in the past. It's not a threat unique to Tesla.
    - eddtries 3y ago
      Can you think of a single time this has happened though? Unions are great in Sweden, totally unlike those in the US. They're basically different organisations entirely. You have three options: 1) government legislates everything tightly, 2) small government & pro-company, 3) small government & pro-employee. Simply put Sweden is 3, 1 is basically off the tables here, and 2 is against the Scandinavian culture.
  - contrarian1234 3y ago
    Person posts data and facts and you respond with an anecdote
    - eddtries 3y ago
      Which is why I used terms like "in my opinion". Data is great but slow and I know my feelings are reciprocated by many others. Give it a year and see if current sentiment affects the stats as this is an ongoing issue while the data is over a year old. Either Tesla folds OR sales drop because you can't service your car. This isn't rocket science, but unless you have sales data for the last month there's not much to really debate with beyond anecdotes.
- IndrekR 3y ago
  Single data point, but early 2022 I got IONIQ5 instead of Model Y due to Musk's public comments. 70'000km later am still happy about it.
  - fransje26 3y ago
    The Ioniq5 caught my eye too recently! Would you care to share the downsides you experienced so far?
    - IndrekR 3y ago
      My main complain this season is that driver seat warming/steering wheel warming can not be controlled from a physical button or via API/app (today it was -15°C here). In cold weather, the rapid charging speed could be better, I heard that this has improved on newer models that also have larger battery. Real range is around 300km when it is below freezing and 480km during summer. https://www.ioniqforum.com/ https://www.ioniqforum.com/ Is good place to get feedback from other users. As this is HN, then I also have to mention that Hyundai API (bluelink) has limits on how many queries you can do in a 24h rolling window. 20 or 50 queries, depending on the type…
- lispm 3y ago
  Some fleets are reducing Tesla: https://www.golem.de/news/restwert-problematik-sixt-draengt-tesla-aus-der-flotte-2312-179975.html https://www.golem.de/news/restwert-problematik-sixt-draengt-... Problems: remaining car value is too low after use, very high maintenance costs.
  - peebeebee 3y ago
    As stated in the article: because they bought the vehicles, and Tesla had serious price reductions in the last years. That's net positive for almost all private persons, right? But not for companies that try to write off vehicles after 2 or 3 years (because of stupid tax incentives). In Belgium the whole 'premium' market is tax incentivised. If you want to drive high-end fashionable cars, go ahead, but that cost should not go to the taxpayer, and those companies should not be profiting of it.
    - lispm 3y ago
      > That's net positive for almost all private persons, right? If one buys an expensive premium car and has lost resale value fast, that's probably not positive for anyone who buys a car.
tobr 3y ago
Very true. General perception of Tesla seems to have gone down the drain in the past few years, as Elon Musk has become a more and more public and divisive figure. This stupid fight is not helping.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  They are new Priuses. Sure they can accelerate in straight line much faster... and that's about it. Colleague has model S, the most powerful plug he can have in his Swiss home can charge 9km of normal ride per hour (forget hills or generally cold weather like we have now till April). So overnight he is happy if he gets enough charge to go to work and back. I can't imagine living with constant range anxiety like that, since he has only this car. Sure there is 150KWh charger somewhere out there, so now he needs to plan trips specifically to top up, with some waiting included.
  - robin_reala 3y ago
    The Tesla wall charger will charge at up to 22kW/h.[1] Assuming it’s the biggest Tesla Model S battery at 100kWh capacity (and a linear charge rate which obviously isn’t true) that’d mean that he’d be able to finish charging in ~4.5 hours, and then drive 40km given your 9km/h figure. Even if it was a more normal 11 or 7kW/h charger it’d still have him driving 80km or 125km, neither of which is anywhere near what a Tesla should be capable of. [1] https://shop.tesla.com/fr_ch/product/wall-connector https://shop.tesla.com/fr_ch/product/wall-connector
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      I don't know about Switzerland, but here in France, if you don't have electrical heating, it's quite uncommon to have more than a 6kW line to your home. And you can't easily get a fatter pipe. My parents' house has a 6kW line and could maybe get 9, but very likely not above.
ivolimmen 3y ago
Not only that. Tesla's are typical American products. If you look at the electrical use of cars Tesla's are the most power hungry electric cars there are. Up until the Tesla 3 all other electrical cars where more efficient. See: https://ev-database.org/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-most-efficient#sort:path~type~order=.efficiency~number~asc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~1200|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=110~350|range-slider-battery:prev~next=10~200|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1500|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.org/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-...
- MaKey 3y ago
  In other words: The Tesla Model 3 seems to be the most efficient regular electrical car currently available.
- heroiccocoa 3y ago
  Is there actually a meaningful difference between EV efficiency worth considering though? In contrast to ICEs, most electric motors are already very efficient and the difference comes down to design choices like power and weight (range), and air/rolling resistance, not wasteful inefficiency[1]. Most Teslas have very decent drag coefficients https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient. [1] Of course there is a semantic issue at play here as well: efficiency referring to both range/energy as well as power out/power in, and whether anyone actually has the right to drive a 845 hp cybertruck around in the midst of a climate crisis and global mass extinction when ~100 bhp ought to be enough for almost all commuting/leisure use.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    So unless you live in France or Sweden or some other country that had minimal fossil fuels in the energy mix for the grid, your EV is likely still essentially burning fossil fuels to get around (just burning it 10-20% more efficiently by way of a centralized plant).
baz00 3y ago
There are a couple of other issues people don't want to talk about (or don't want to admit) as well. Sample size of four here but the problems are interesting. Firstly it turns out charging your car is a pain in the ass in some places, particularly here in London. The chargers are regularly damaged and poorly maintained or completely rammed. There is also nowhere to park to charge at home. On top of that the electricity pricing options are so volatile that it is actually hard work to find a cost effective charging option on a regular basis which means you have to plan everything. Ad-hoc trips being a planning exercise really doesn't work well. Secondarily, the cost savings didn't add up when you factor in depreciation and capital cost anyway. Especially when there is nothing competitive to petrol vehicles on the second hand market where the majority of sales volume is. Add to that the toxic Musk association and the constant pushing and marketing and I think people are getting fatigued and unsympathetic at this point. The market is damaging itself with dishonesty, inflated claims and toxic association. The four people sold their (3x Tesla, 1x BMW) and two went back to petrol cars and the other two said they'd never own another car again.
- davidwritesbugs 3y ago
  And if you live in the sticks you get EV range anxiety - my nearest town is an hour+ away so if I go shopping and can't find a charging point in town I'm risking stuck down a country lane in the dark. It's not very likely bar very bad luck, but why take the risk when I've got petrol stations everywhere?
  - baz00 3y ago
    I have a friend who semi solved that problem by building a DIY solar and storage farm on his property. His life however turned from various interesting hobbies into doing this to charge his car up which he rarely uses anyway. I don't get it. He had 0 problems, now has 2.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Your first point at least qualified itself with a “EVs aren’t all things to all people”, but beyond that, it sounds like you’ve got a very biased sample. My EV will definitely be a net saving over a petrol car. 2.5 years in, and it’s basically a given at this point. And this is in a country without any government rebates.
lynx23 3y ago
I see it quite politicalized. Tesla was "cool" in Europe at a time when the center-left consumers were too naiv as to not realize that Musk is center-right. After the media helped to transport this, Teslas were suddenly less cool with center-leftish people. Its actually hilarious.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  I don't think most Tesla owners really care or perhaps even know about Musk. The brand has fade quite a bit and while it's still viewed as affordable luxury brand for many, but is also devolved into "generic electric vehicle" in other circles. Basically: You wanted an EV but could be bothered to figure out which car to get so you got the Tesla.
  - lynx23 3y ago
    I have yet to meet a Tesla owner who doesn't know who Musk is.
    - mrweasel 3y ago
      They probably know who he is, but do they know about his crazy outbursts? The only reason I know that Musk is a lunatic is because HN wont shut up about his stunts in regards to Twitter. Otherwise I wouldn't have known either.
- mcv 3y ago
  After Musk turned from center-right to extreme-right, you mean. Inviting nazis and white supremacists to Twitter, posting antisemitic tweets, and of course union busting. That's how he's squandering his once-positive reputation. Europe has no problem with center-right politics; it is mostly center-right. It's the extreme right, racism, etc that people are very sensitive about. Also because of some unfortunate history about 80 years ago.
  - lynx23 3y ago
    You just invoked godwin's law. Not very interesting "observations" you make.
mgoetzke 3y ago
How is the competition catching up ?
- CharlieDigital 3y ago
  Check the recent comparison of charging rates of various makes: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html Dominated by the Koreans and Germans. Car and Driver had similar conclusions for their 10 Best annual rankings for the EV category which didn't include a Tesla. Tesla's charging network is king, but the actual automobiles themselves are no longer class leading.
  - andrewinardeer 3y ago
    You have neglected to address one of the most poignant issues for a consumer: price.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    AFAICT, the test was without preconditioning, which is silly because preconditioning is crucial for getting fast charging speeds. It's also unrealistic, because preconditioning is pretty much automatic so I've never supercharged without preconditioning.
- drakonka 3y ago
  I don't know much about cars, but I seem to see lots of non-Tesla electric vehicles around Stockholm and Gothenburg to the point where anecdotally Tesla seems just a drop in the bucket of extensive options. I see Polestar, Kia, Nio, and some logos I don't even recognize on the streets regularly. So I just called to ask my partner who has experience in the automotive industry and knows way more about cars than me. Here's the general sentiment he expressed: * There are lots of competitive options here that are growing in popularity, and more companies are producing solid electric options that are easily competitive with Tesla. * One example was the Polestar 2, with which he said Polestar/Volvo can be said to have "caught up" almost 4 years ago. According to him Volvo's 100 years of experience with hardware helped make the Polestar a better vehicle hardware-wise, _but_ Tesla still has better software. He said it takes older manufacturers longer to catch up on that front. He said it depends on what the consumer values more: It would at this stage be reasonable to say the Polestar is better if your priority is the physical car itself. But if you value software, you might favor Tesla out of the two. * Some companies are innovating in a way that Tesla has not, such as Nio's swappable batteries. * There's lots of innovation and choice in the space, and where a few years ago Tesla seemed like the only option, there are other manufacturers who have "caught up" by now with their offerings by offering affordable, high-quality electric vehicles
rightbyte 3y ago
You probably don't want a mass consumer brand to become a political symbol. Hummers were more or less considered political symbols in support for the US war on Iraq, and like, pollution and gasoline waste. But that's a niche car which might benefit from being "rad" politically.
- mcv 3y ago
  If all the gas-loving conservatives in the US suddenly start buying Teslas to spite European unions, I'm actually fine with that.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  It's not like companies are in any way shy about that. They love to associate themselves publicly with left wing causes, even going as far as to tell customers who don't like it to fuck off. See Disney, large parts of the news business, Budweiser and endless more. How often have moviegoers been told that they are obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors? Musk isn't doing anything unusual in that regard. The only reason he attracts such opprobrium is the left feel they should have ideological control over every institution. Musk isn't on board with that and it infuriates them.
  - drakonka 3y ago
    > How often have moviegoers been told that they are obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors? I don't know, how often? I'm genuinely curious because as a movie-goer, I've never been told that I'm obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors.
    - nvm0n2 3y ago
      It's so common it's practically a meme by now. Hollywood loves saying its customers are toxic sexists and racists. Sometimes they even explicitly say that people have a moral obligation to watch their movies. This article has a bunch of examples. https://www.outkick.com/hollywoods-war-on-toxic-fans-makes-no-sense/ https://www.outkick.com/hollywoods-war-on-toxic-fans-makes-n... The 2016 dud “Ghostbusters” may have unofficially been the first time a Hollywood product singled out “toxic” fans. The franchise reboot, which reportedly lost Sony $70 million, included a scene where the budding Ghostbusters attack their online trolls. The director, Paul Feig, added the sequence to directly attack the film’s critics.
TomK32 3y ago
Just looking at the cockpit at almost all modern cars, the Tesla models especially, the are toys indeed. It's all buttons on a huge display, none of the comfort that a muscle memory offers when you want to adjust the AC a bit or flip the recycle air switch or use the built-in lighter.
- FeloniousHam 3y ago
  How does moving some physical switches to a touchscreen (or a multi-switch) make a Tesla a toy? I'm quite familiar the argument, but my personal experience in a Model 3 (and subsequently a Mercedes) suggests that an overabundance of geegaws is nothing so much as a crib mobile for upright adults.

zpeti 3y ago

You are literally making up numbers (Edit: facts) to fit your narrative on Musk. Well done. Teslas are doing just fine in Europe: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ Almost no-one I know cares about what Musk says on twitter, they just want an good electric car, and they buy them. The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-europe-s-best-selling-car-in-2023 https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-... Please - at least look up figures before posting stuff like this. Edit: it’s amazing I’m getting downvoted on HN which is supposedly a scientific community. The person I was replying to made claims which were wrong which I point out with numbers. Yet people are so obsessed with hating musk they downvote me.

tobr 3y ago
No numbers were mentioned in the comment you are replying to.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. Comparing model sales doesn’t make a lot sense. Tesla only offers 2 different models in the 40-60k range. Now look at VW and then add very similar cars from Skoda, Audi and Cupra. Of course your’e still right Tesla’s market share in Europe has only been growing over the last couple of years.
- peebeebee 3y ago
  Tesla model Y is selling like cakes here in Belgium. Lots of electric cars have waiting lists that can easily be a few months. Tesla has no problems here. Ordered mine, got it one week later. Tesla Model Y is also still the one of the best in terms of price vs value. Imho the only real competitors are the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 at the moment, but the model Y has them beaten in numbers on almost every front.
  - willvarfar 3y ago
    (happy EV6 owner; would recommend :) )
    - kyriakos 3y ago
      Happy ioniq 5 owner. Recommended.
gafage 3y ago
Reminds me of how overstated the volkswagen emissions scandal is here in HN. In real life no one gives a shit.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Probably because IRL, people have their own burdens to worry about like their families, careers and paying the bills. Going after a trillion dollar corporation slowly killing them with invisible particles is not first on their agenda but delegate it to the states to handle as that's their responsibility because that's why they pay taxes. The states which don't really do much against major corporations of that size but slap them of the wrist.
- peebeebee 3y ago
  I do. I will be a lot more hesitant buying a 'green' vehicle from a company that 1) did not give a damn about switching to electric before Elon transformed the industry. 2) even lied about the pollution they created. Consumers wanted electric cars a long time ago, those old-timers just denied us because it would've hurt their short-term profits.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    ... Eh? The first eGolf (ignoring weirdo historical electric Golf variants; VW has occasionally dabbled since the 70s) was delivered a year before the first Tesla S, though for a pilot scheme in California; they didn't hit normal retail til a year or so after. The eUp came out in the same timeframe. Commercial deliveries of Tesla Ses, eUps, and eGolfs all started within a couple of months of each other. By the time Tesla got around to launching an electric car that didn't cost like 100,000 EUR, VW had been making such cars for years. I think VW maybe made a marketing mistake by making the eGolf and eUp so... non-obvious (there was really almost no way to tell they weren't a normal Golf/Up from the outside); it lead people to believe that the ID.3/4/5 were their first electric cars.
eddtries 3y ago
Fwiw in Sweden I get a company car and was considering Tesla but this Union issue has meant I no longer trust the level of service I will get long term & probably will get a Polestar instead. It is having some effect because, in my opinion, he is likely to decide to just up and leave one day and I’ll have a non-serviceable car. There’s not many automotive CEOs, if any, where that’s a consideration for me apart from Tesla and it does stem from his Twitter persona & rash decisions/going back on things a lot.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  How does it stem from his persona, and not your countries unions? Unions can break whole industries if they're allowed to, and have done many times in the past. It's not a threat unique to Tesla.
  - eddtries 3y ago
    Can you think of a single time this has happened though? Unions are great in Sweden, totally unlike those in the US. They're basically different organisations entirely. You have three options: 1) government legislates everything tightly, 2) small government & pro-company, 3) small government & pro-employee. Simply put Sweden is 3, 1 is basically off the tables here, and 2 is against the Scandinavian culture.
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Person posts data and facts and you respond with an anecdote
  - eddtries 3y ago
    Which is why I used terms like "in my opinion". Data is great but slow and I know my feelings are reciprocated by many others. Give it a year and see if current sentiment affects the stats as this is an ongoing issue while the data is over a year old. Either Tesla folds OR sales drop because you can't service your car. This isn't rocket science, but unless you have sales data for the last month there's not much to really debate with beyond anecdotes.
IndrekR 3y ago
Single data point, but early 2022 I got IONIQ5 instead of Model Y due to Musk's public comments. 70'000km later am still happy about it.
- fransje26 3y ago
  The Ioniq5 caught my eye too recently! Would you care to share the downsides you experienced so far?
  - IndrekR 3y ago
    My main complain this season is that driver seat warming/steering wheel warming can not be controlled from a physical button or via API/app (today it was -15°C here). In cold weather, the rapid charging speed could be better, I heard that this has improved on newer models that also have larger battery. Real range is around 300km when it is below freezing and 480km during summer. https://www.ioniqforum.com/ https://www.ioniqforum.com/ Is good place to get feedback from other users. As this is HN, then I also have to mention that Hyundai API (bluelink) has limits on how many queries you can do in a 24h rolling window. 20 or 50 queries, depending on the type…
lispm 3y ago
Some fleets are reducing Tesla: https://www.golem.de/news/restwert-problematik-sixt-draengt-tesla-aus-der-flotte-2312-179975.html https://www.golem.de/news/restwert-problematik-sixt-draengt-... Problems: remaining car value is too low after use, very high maintenance costs.
- peebeebee 3y ago
  As stated in the article: because they bought the vehicles, and Tesla had serious price reductions in the last years. That's net positive for almost all private persons, right? But not for companies that try to write off vehicles after 2 or 3 years (because of stupid tax incentives). In Belgium the whole 'premium' market is tax incentivised. If you want to drive high-end fashionable cars, go ahead, but that cost should not go to the taxpayer, and those companies should not be profiting of it.
  - lispm 3y ago
    > That's net positive for almost all private persons, right? If one buys an expensive premium car and has lost resale value fast, that's probably not positive for anyone who buys a car.

tobr 3y ago

Very true. General perception of Tesla seems to have gone down the drain in the past few years, as Elon Musk has become a more and more public and divisive figure. This stupid fight is not helping.

saiya-jin 3y ago
They are new Priuses. Sure they can accelerate in straight line much faster... and that's about it. Colleague has model S, the most powerful plug he can have in his Swiss home can charge 9km of normal ride per hour (forget hills or generally cold weather like we have now till April). So overnight he is happy if he gets enough charge to go to work and back. I can't imagine living with constant range anxiety like that, since he has only this car. Sure there is 150KWh charger somewhere out there, so now he needs to plan trips specifically to top up, with some waiting included.
- robin_reala 3y ago
  The Tesla wall charger will charge at up to 22kW/h.[1] Assuming it’s the biggest Tesla Model S battery at 100kWh capacity (and a linear charge rate which obviously isn’t true) that’d mean that he’d be able to finish charging in ~4.5 hours, and then drive 40km given your 9km/h figure. Even if it was a more normal 11 or 7kW/h charger it’d still have him driving 80km or 125km, neither of which is anywhere near what a Tesla should be capable of. [1] https://shop.tesla.com/fr_ch/product/wall-connector https://shop.tesla.com/fr_ch/product/wall-connector
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I don't know about Switzerland, but here in France, if you don't have electrical heating, it's quite uncommon to have more than a 6kW line to your home. And you can't easily get a fatter pipe. My parents' house has a 6kW line and could maybe get 9, but very likely not above.

ivolimmen 3y ago

Not only that. Tesla's are typical American products. If you look at the electrical use of cars Tesla's are the most power hungry electric cars there are. Up until the Tesla 3 all other electrical cars where more efficient. See: https://ev-database.org/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-most-efficient#sort:path~type~order=.efficiency~number~asc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~1200|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=110~350|range-slider-battery:prev~next=10~200|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1500|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.org/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-...

MaKey 3y ago
In other words: The Tesla Model 3 seems to be the most efficient regular electrical car currently available.
heroiccocoa 3y ago
Is there actually a meaningful difference between EV efficiency worth considering though? In contrast to ICEs, most electric motors are already very efficient and the difference comes down to design choices like power and weight (range), and air/rolling resistance, not wasteful inefficiency[1]. Most Teslas have very decent drag coefficients https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient. [1] Of course there is a semantic issue at play here as well: efficiency referring to both range/energy as well as power out/power in, and whether anyone actually has the right to drive a 845 hp cybertruck around in the midst of a climate crisis and global mass extinction when ~100 bhp ought to be enough for almost all commuting/leisure use.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  So unless you live in France or Sweden or some other country that had minimal fossil fuels in the energy mix for the grid, your EV is likely still essentially burning fossil fuels to get around (just burning it 10-20% more efficiently by way of a centralized plant).

baz00 3y ago

There are a couple of other issues people don't want to talk about (or don't want to admit) as well. Sample size of four here but the problems are interesting. Firstly it turns out charging your car is a pain in the ass in some places, particularly here in London. The chargers are regularly damaged and poorly maintained or completely rammed. There is also nowhere to park to charge at home. On top of that the electricity pricing options are so volatile that it is actually hard work to find a cost effective charging option on a regular basis which means you have to plan everything. Ad-hoc trips being a planning exercise really doesn't work well. Secondarily, the cost savings didn't add up when you factor in depreciation and capital cost anyway. Especially when there is nothing competitive to petrol vehicles on the second hand market where the majority of sales volume is. Add to that the toxic Musk association and the constant pushing and marketing and I think people are getting fatigued and unsympathetic at this point. The market is damaging itself with dishonesty, inflated claims and toxic association. The four people sold their (3x Tesla, 1x BMW) and two went back to petrol cars and the other two said they'd never own another car again.

davidwritesbugs 3y ago
And if you live in the sticks you get EV range anxiety - my nearest town is an hour+ away so if I go shopping and can't find a charging point in town I'm risking stuck down a country lane in the dark. It's not very likely bar very bad luck, but why take the risk when I've got petrol stations everywhere?
- baz00 3y ago
  I have a friend who semi solved that problem by building a DIY solar and storage farm on his property. His life however turned from various interesting hobbies into doing this to charge his car up which he rarely uses anyway. I don't get it. He had 0 problems, now has 2.
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Your first point at least qualified itself with a “EVs aren’t all things to all people”, but beyond that, it sounds like you’ve got a very biased sample. My EV will definitely be a net saving over a petrol car. 2.5 years in, and it’s basically a given at this point. And this is in a country without any government rebates.

lynx23 3y ago

I see it quite politicalized. Tesla was "cool" in Europe at a time when the center-left consumers were too naiv as to not realize that Musk is center-right. After the media helped to transport this, Teslas were suddenly less cool with center-leftish people. Its actually hilarious.

mrweasel 3y ago
I don't think most Tesla owners really care or perhaps even know about Musk. The brand has fade quite a bit and while it's still viewed as affordable luxury brand for many, but is also devolved into "generic electric vehicle" in other circles. Basically: You wanted an EV but could be bothered to figure out which car to get so you got the Tesla.
- lynx23 3y ago
  I have yet to meet a Tesla owner who doesn't know who Musk is.
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    They probably know who he is, but do they know about his crazy outbursts? The only reason I know that Musk is a lunatic is because HN wont shut up about his stunts in regards to Twitter. Otherwise I wouldn't have known either.
mcv 3y ago
After Musk turned from center-right to extreme-right, you mean. Inviting nazis and white supremacists to Twitter, posting antisemitic tweets, and of course union busting. That's how he's squandering his once-positive reputation. Europe has no problem with center-right politics; it is mostly center-right. It's the extreme right, racism, etc that people are very sensitive about. Also because of some unfortunate history about 80 years ago.
- lynx23 3y ago
  You just invoked godwin's law. Not very interesting "observations" you make.

mgoetzke 3y ago

How is the competition catching up ?

CharlieDigital 3y ago
Check the recent comparison of charging rates of various makes: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html Dominated by the Koreans and Germans. Car and Driver had similar conclusions for their 10 Best annual rankings for the EV category which didn't include a Tesla. Tesla's charging network is king, but the actual automobiles themselves are no longer class leading.
- andrewinardeer 3y ago
  You have neglected to address one of the most poignant issues for a consumer: price.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  AFAICT, the test was without preconditioning, which is silly because preconditioning is crucial for getting fast charging speeds. It's also unrealistic, because preconditioning is pretty much automatic so I've never supercharged without preconditioning.
drakonka 3y ago
I don't know much about cars, but I seem to see lots of non-Tesla electric vehicles around Stockholm and Gothenburg to the point where anecdotally Tesla seems just a drop in the bucket of extensive options. I see Polestar, Kia, Nio, and some logos I don't even recognize on the streets regularly. So I just called to ask my partner who has experience in the automotive industry and knows way more about cars than me. Here's the general sentiment he expressed: * There are lots of competitive options here that are growing in popularity, and more companies are producing solid electric options that are easily competitive with Tesla. * One example was the Polestar 2, with which he said Polestar/Volvo can be said to have "caught up" almost 4 years ago. According to him Volvo's 100 years of experience with hardware helped make the Polestar a better vehicle hardware-wise, _but_ Tesla still has better software. He said it takes older manufacturers longer to catch up on that front. He said it depends on what the consumer values more: It would at this stage be reasonable to say the Polestar is better if your priority is the physical car itself. But if you value software, you might favor Tesla out of the two. * Some companies are innovating in a way that Tesla has not, such as Nio's swappable batteries. * There's lots of innovation and choice in the space, and where a few years ago Tesla seemed like the only option, there are other manufacturers who have "caught up" by now with their offerings by offering affordable, high-quality electric vehicles

rightbyte 3y ago

You probably don't want a mass consumer brand to become a political symbol. Hummers were more or less considered political symbols in support for the US war on Iraq, and like, pollution and gasoline waste. But that's a niche car which might benefit from being "rad" politically.

mcv 3y ago
If all the gas-loving conservatives in the US suddenly start buying Teslas to spite European unions, I'm actually fine with that.
nvm0n2 3y ago
It's not like companies are in any way shy about that. They love to associate themselves publicly with left wing causes, even going as far as to tell customers who don't like it to fuck off. See Disney, large parts of the news business, Budweiser and endless more. How often have moviegoers been told that they are obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors? Musk isn't doing anything unusual in that regard. The only reason he attracts such opprobrium is the left feel they should have ideological control over every institution. Musk isn't on board with that and it infuriates them.
- drakonka 3y ago
  > How often have moviegoers been told that they are obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors? I don't know, how often? I'm genuinely curious because as a movie-goer, I've never been told that I'm obliged to like a movie because of the genders/races of the actors.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    It's so common it's practically a meme by now. Hollywood loves saying its customers are toxic sexists and racists. Sometimes they even explicitly say that people have a moral obligation to watch their movies. This article has a bunch of examples. https://www.outkick.com/hollywoods-war-on-toxic-fans-makes-no-sense/ https://www.outkick.com/hollywoods-war-on-toxic-fans-makes-n... The 2016 dud “Ghostbusters” may have unofficially been the first time a Hollywood product singled out “toxic” fans. The franchise reboot, which reportedly lost Sony $70 million, included a scene where the budding Ghostbusters attack their online trolls. The director, Paul Feig, added the sequence to directly attack the film’s critics.

TomK32 3y ago

Just looking at the cockpit at almost all modern cars, the Tesla models especially, the are toys indeed. It's all buttons on a huge display, none of the comfort that a muscle memory offers when you want to adjust the AC a bit or flip the recycle air switch or use the built-in lighter.

FeloniousHam 3y ago
How does moving some physical switches to a touchscreen (or a multi-switch) make a Tesla a toy? I'm quite familiar the argument, but my personal experience in a Model 3 (and subsequently a Mercedes) suggests that an overabundance of geegaws is nothing so much as a crib mobile for upright adults.