4 ms·

We've (workers, non-CRE owners) collectively known this all along. What I don't understand is how the green/net-zero lobby is relatively quiet about fewer peopl

by hd4 3y ago

We've (workers, non-CRE owners) collectively known this all along. What I don't understand is how the green/net-zero lobby is relatively quiet about fewer people using transport to go to work. It makes far more sense for WFH to have been the default long before the covid lockdowns, frankly I'm sad that that's what it took to get us here. It shows how much hypocrisy there is about all the climate efforts if those same people aren't clamoring for WFH

rwmj 3y ago
The calculation is not entirely straightforward because of the efficiency of heating or cooling private homes during the day vs doing the same for offices.
Symbiote 3y ago
Is WFH automatically greener than an office? It means heating/cooling many buildings rather than a few, many individuals cooking alone etc. It seems it is better in the USA [1] and the UK [2] though there is considerable variance when comparing several European countries [3]. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/working-remotely-can-more-than-halve-an-office-employees-carbon-footprint/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/working-remotely-... [2] https://circularecology.com/news/the-carbon-emissions-of-homeworking-and-office-working https://circularecology.com/news/the-carbon-emissions-of-hom... [3] https://www.vodafone-institut.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/CT_Homeworking-report-June-2021.pdf https://www.vodafone-institut.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/...
- sph 3y ago
  Are you forgetting the enormous amount of carbon emissions from commuting?
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    You could read the first part of any of the three links I provided to answer that.
  - Melting_Harps 3y ago
    > Are you forgetting the enormous amount of carbon emissions from commuting? Or the large scale logistics to service, maintain, supply, and feed these metropolis': it's a centralized relic of a bygone era, and the sooner we accelerate WFH and actually frame it as way to counter-act climate change this will never gain traction. Succumbing to the landed gentry's will has been a story as old as feudalism itself, but this has to be something that must be collectively fought for. I've lived in commercial buildings in a city cental, and at night or on Sundays when I was there entirely on my own all the heaters/ac heat pumps would still be going all day/night: and all the lighting and electronic devices plugged in were still whirring away. I got really drunk one night and lost my keys walking up the stairs (the elevator was still on just not accessible from my side of the building at night) and while trying to retrace my steps I realized how deafening how the sound of so many devices can be if you actually pay attention to it with no other ambient/background noise is there to mute it.
- citrin_ru 3y ago
  Even if an office is more energy efficient to get overall energy saving an office worker should switch power at home off going to the office. Which not always happening for couple reasons: a family member staying at home, lack of remote controlled thermostat which allows to start cooling/heating one hour before coming back home, in wet climate one have to run heating 24x7 to avoid mold growth (because of water condensed on cold surfaces). AFIK it is common to have AC or heating running at home even if all occupants are at the office.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    In much of Europe higher energy prices mean timer-controlled heating/cooling has been normal for over 50 years. Something like this [1], combined with a thermostat. A newer system can have different temperatures. I'm in a cold climate, but when my heating is "off" it's actually set to heat if the temperature falls below 8°C. (Probably it should be higher, but it's an apartment surrounded by others, so the temperature will never fall that low anyway.) These factors are probably why there's significant variation within European countries. [1] https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/danfoss-randall-3020p-24-hour-mechanical-mini-programmer/ https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/danfoss-randall-3020p-24-...
- Emma_Goldman 3y ago
  I think crucial over the medium-term is the comparative difficulty of decarbonising building heating and home-to-work transport at scale, through what technologies that is achieved, and the energy intensity of those technologies. It also depends on house size and grid design. My understanding is that the annual kWh energy consumption of a heat pump will be slightly greater that an electric vehicle. But most two-adult families each have their own car, doubling the energy demand. It also require a lot more energy to build an electric vehicle than a heat pump, and requires more scarce minerals - with their own security and environmental problems. But then if people commute by walking, cycling or train, that's a very different calculation.
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  I heat and cool my home whether I am there or not. Being in an office isn’t going to change the fact that I want my home comfortable all of the time unless I’m in vacation.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I think most people do not operate this way. All you have to do is look at electricity usage charts to see that ac goes of during the day and turns back on when people get home.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Why not significantly reduce your electricity use and carbon footprint by not doing that?
    - lotsoweiners 3y ago
      I work from home so this is all hypothetical and am not particularly concerned with my own carbon footprint overall. I live in Phoenix and am on a time of use plan that encourages (cheaper) high energy usage during most of the day and discourages (expensive) high energy from 3-8 I believe. This basically means that I would be heavily using energy until 3 which would be the majority of my shift (I leave at 4). Combining this with gas for commute (approximately 20-25 miles each way) and I just don't see any scenario where not cooling my house during the day is economically beneficial to me.
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
The same people are clamouring for WFH, but their efforts aren't reported. Green politics are still considered fringe by the media, so the only net zero announcements you see are from Big Dog politicians - who probably aren't particularly committed, but are saying the words because they know it's going to be someone else's problem 25 years from now. Also, a real estate crash would nuke the economy. This is fine if you think a property-first economy - which is pretty much what we have - is insane and unsustainable. But it would still come with huge collateral damage. A soft landing/winding down/repurposing would make more sense, but the people who make the big decisions don't have the motivation or the insight to make that likely.

by hd4 3y ago

rwmj 3y ago

The calculation is not entirely straightforward because of the efficiency of heating or cooling private homes during the day vs doing the same for offices.

Symbiote 3y ago

Is WFH automatically greener than an office? It means heating/cooling many buildings rather than a few, many individuals cooking alone etc. It seems it is better in the USA [1] and the UK [2] though there is considerable variance when comparing several European countries [3]. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/working-remotely-can-more-than-halve-an-office-employees-carbon-footprint/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/working-remotely-... [2] https://circularecology.com/news/the-carbon-emissions-of-homeworking-and-office-working https://circularecology.com/news/the-carbon-emissions-of-hom... [3] https://www.vodafone-institut.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/CT_Homeworking-report-June-2021.pdf https://www.vodafone-institut.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/...

sph 3y ago
Are you forgetting the enormous amount of carbon emissions from commuting?
- Symbiote 3y ago
  You could read the first part of any of the three links I provided to answer that.
- Melting_Harps 3y ago
  > Are you forgetting the enormous amount of carbon emissions from commuting? Or the large scale logistics to service, maintain, supply, and feed these metropolis': it's a centralized relic of a bygone era, and the sooner we accelerate WFH and actually frame it as way to counter-act climate change this will never gain traction. Succumbing to the landed gentry's will has been a story as old as feudalism itself, but this has to be something that must be collectively fought for. I've lived in commercial buildings in a city cental, and at night or on Sundays when I was there entirely on my own all the heaters/ac heat pumps would still be going all day/night: and all the lighting and electronic devices plugged in were still whirring away. I got really drunk one night and lost my keys walking up the stairs (the elevator was still on just not accessible from my side of the building at night) and while trying to retrace my steps I realized how deafening how the sound of so many devices can be if you actually pay attention to it with no other ambient/background noise is there to mute it.
citrin_ru 3y ago
Even if an office is more energy efficient to get overall energy saving an office worker should switch power at home off going to the office. Which not always happening for couple reasons: a family member staying at home, lack of remote controlled thermostat which allows to start cooling/heating one hour before coming back home, in wet climate one have to run heating 24x7 to avoid mold growth (because of water condensed on cold surfaces). AFIK it is common to have AC or heating running at home even if all occupants are at the office.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  In much of Europe higher energy prices mean timer-controlled heating/cooling has been normal for over 50 years. Something like this [1], combined with a thermostat. A newer system can have different temperatures. I'm in a cold climate, but when my heating is "off" it's actually set to heat if the temperature falls below 8°C. (Probably it should be higher, but it's an apartment surrounded by others, so the temperature will never fall that low anyway.) These factors are probably why there's significant variation within European countries. [1] https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/danfoss-randall-3020p-24-hour-mechanical-mini-programmer/ https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/danfoss-randall-3020p-24-...
Emma_Goldman 3y ago
I think crucial over the medium-term is the comparative difficulty of decarbonising building heating and home-to-work transport at scale, through what technologies that is achieved, and the energy intensity of those technologies. It also depends on house size and grid design. My understanding is that the annual kWh energy consumption of a heat pump will be slightly greater that an electric vehicle. But most two-adult families each have their own car, doubling the energy demand. It also require a lot more energy to build an electric vehicle than a heat pump, and requires more scarce minerals - with their own security and environmental problems. But then if people commute by walking, cycling or train, that's a very different calculation.
lotsoweiners 3y ago
I heat and cool my home whether I am there or not. Being in an office isn’t going to change the fact that I want my home comfortable all of the time unless I’m in vacation.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I think most people do not operate this way. All you have to do is look at electricity usage charts to see that ac goes of during the day and turns back on when people get home.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Why not significantly reduce your electricity use and carbon footprint by not doing that?
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    I work from home so this is all hypothetical and am not particularly concerned with my own carbon footprint overall. I live in Phoenix and am on a time of use plan that encourages (cheaper) high energy usage during most of the day and discourages (expensive) high energy from 3-8 I believe. This basically means that I would be heavily using energy until 3 which would be the majority of my shift (I leave at 4). Combining this with gas for commute (approximately 20-25 miles each way) and I just don't see any scenario where not cooling my house during the day is economically beneficial to me.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

The same people are clamouring for WFH, but their efforts aren't reported. Green politics are still considered fringe by the media, so the only net zero announcements you see are from Big Dog politicians - who probably aren't particularly committed, but are saying the words because they know it's going to be someone else's problem 25 years from now. Also, a real estate crash would nuke the economy. This is fine if you think a property-first economy - which is pretty much what we have - is insane and unsustainable. But it would still come with huge collateral damage. A soft landing/winding down/repurposing would make more sense, but the people who make the big decisions don't have the motivation or the insight to make that likely.