11 ms·

Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark

73 points by robin_reala 3y ago

mcv 3y ago
https://archive.is/FkP0E https://archive.is/FkP0E
- idaseing 3y ago
  You're the best!
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Predictable escalation to a stupid fight. The only solution, other than accepting unionisation (EDIT: collective bargaining, i.e. Swedish commercial culture), is franchising local operations. A week ago that was Sweden. Now it's the Nordics. Let this marinate through Christmas, and it may find home in European legislatures.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Unions in the rest of the UE aren't as strong or influential as those in Sweden. Maybe France.
  - tacker2000 3y ago
    Austria has pretty strong unions.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      That doesn't mean Austrian Tesla workers are also unionized in a worker's council. Union busting is quite popular in Austria even by Austrian companies. Check out Anton Paar. You propose unionization there, you get fired on the spot since Austria is basically at-will employment for non-unionized workers. The Metal union is the only union with fangs in Austria, the rest are just paper tigers. And a solidarity strike in Austria, like in Sweden, would be incredibly unlikely as I don't think there's the legal framework for that in Austria, and in general, striking is not really part Austrian labor culture but more like bending over to wealthy industrialists donors to the conservative OVP party, which is why I put my money on France.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Unions in the rest of the UE aren't as strong or influential as those in Sweden No, but there's a unique alignment between labor (which is popular with voters) and industry (which fears Tesla) that could create real political momentum. This is a dumb alignment to force. Tesla is doing it.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > This is a dumb alignment to force, and Tesla is doing is needlessly. They might be worried that if they go down this route then they get set on a path to become their outdated competitors.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > might be worried that if they go down this route then they get set on a path to become their outdated competitors They petrified when they became inflexible. Adaptability, not orthodoxy, is how challengers win. To be clear, I don't think we'll see some pan-European labour movement against Tesla. But I do think it's becoming increasingly lucrative to take pot shots at the firm. If that starts happening in EU capitals, that's twenty-eight needless distractions to dispatch.
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages (of course lacking infrastructure would make it harder).
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages This might be the one move stupider than starting this fight, an innovator's dilemma [1] own goal. The Nordics are a high-income EV beachhead. Tesla has best-selling cars. This entire fight is currently intrigue. The risk is it metastasising into a political crisis. What makes that crisis a crisis is it threatens those sales. Decamping--in effect, surrendering--positively nukes them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma
  - fransje26 3y ago
    I would not rule out Germany..
- mongol 3y ago
  The conflict is not about unionisation. It is about collective agreements.
  - gadders 3y ago
    It's probably about left wing union activism and Twitter/X as well.
    - mongol 3y ago
      How so? It is pretty clear what the conflict is about, and it is not about anything of that. People may have their sentiment towards Tesla affected by Musk's antics, but it has nothing to do with the negotiation between the union and Tesla.
      - ActionHank 3y ago
        Clearly being sarcastic my guy
      - gadders 3y ago
        You don't think if he hadn't bought twitter/x the unions would have been quite so uncooperative?
        SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Tesla has refused to even negotiate agreement for six years, that's not the union being uncooperative.
        mongol 3y ago
        No I don't think it is part of it at all. It may motivate onlookers to cheer the union on, but it is immaterial to the conflict as such.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
- filleokus 3y ago
  In Sweden the CBA is a core part of unionisation. Swedish labor laws are actually fairly lax (depends on what you compare with ofc), where the state has handed over essentially legislative power to the "parties", the large union organisations and organisations of employers / companies. A little corporatistic if you want. These parties then negotiate and the resulting CBA's fills in blanks in the legislation (such as minimum salary levels etc) and other benefits. With a CBA in place, strikes are forbidden if the deal is kept. It's renegotiated every couple of years. Many companies / local unions also have local amendments (which are negotiated on a more local level). This model is generally appreciated by both the unions and large enterprisey companies. It gives stability to the companies. However... Tesla is of course not part of these employer organisations. A typical software startup or even fairly large (< ≈1000) white-collar employers are not part of these organisations either. About 10% of workers are outside of CBA (like me and probably the majority of developers in Stockholm). Those companies don't value having to commit to a CBA, might have different compensation schemes etc. The workers at these companies are typically happy and well compensated. It's not uncommon to see stuff like "Our pensions are according to the CBA" even if they don't sign the CBA. Employees of these non-CBAcompanies can still be in the union though, as you get benefits even without CBA, and part of the unemployment insurance is typically through the union. Further, according to both Swedish labour law and EU negative freedom of association principles, entering into a CBA is not required. But, the whole Swedish model depends on most employers signing the CBA, especially those in blue collar industries where the risk of exploitation is higher. No union is going to strike about e.g McKinsey not having a CBA, but Tesla mechanics I think are too close to home of the blue collar unions. I do wonder how this will end... Tesla signing an CBA seems out of the question, and I think the union might have overplayed their hand here. Many Tesla employees are not striking (nor want a CBA), many Tesla customers who might have had a good impression of the unions were pissed of when the union put a strike on e.g changing to winter tires of Tesla cars (even at non-tesla shops).
parski 3y ago
Get lost, Tesla.
Baguette5242 3y ago
In EU, Teslas were cool toys at the beginning but now it got this image of "that stupid Musk's product" and people are slowly but surely drifting away from it, especially considering the competition catching up. Surely, this other union thing is not going to improve the brand image.
- zpeti 3y ago
  You are literally making up numbers (Edit: facts) to fit your narrative on Musk. Well done. Teslas are doing just fine in Europe: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ Almost no-one I know cares about what Musk says on twitter, they just want an good electric car, and they buy them. The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-europe-s-best-selling-car-in-2023 https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-... Please - at least look up figures before posting stuff like this. Edit: it’s amazing I’m getting downvoted on HN which is supposedly a scientific community. The person I was replying to made claims which were wrong which I point out with numbers. Yet people are so obsessed with hating musk they downvote me.
  - tobr 3y ago
    No numbers were mentioned in the comment you are replying to.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    > The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. Comparing model sales doesn’t make a lot sense. Tesla only offers 2 different models in the 40-60k range. Now look at VW and then add very similar cars from Skoda, Audi and Cupra. Of course your’e still right Tesla’s market share in Europe has only been growing over the last couple of years.
    - peebeebee 3y ago
      Tesla model Y is selling like cakes here in Belgium. Lots of electric cars have waiting lists that can easily be a few months. Tesla has no problems here. Ordered mine, got it one week later. Tesla Model Y is also still the one of the best in terms of price vs value. Imho the only real competitors are the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 at the moment, but the model Y has them beaten in numbers on almost every front.
ivolimmen 3y ago
News at 11: Americans don't like unions and is fighting EU that does...
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  Except most American automakers besides Tesla seem to have very strong unions. Which are also possibly more effective at maximizing their members wages than the unions in Europe.
  - lawn 3y ago
    Swedish unions aren't primarily focused on wages but on other benefits, such as more support during paternity leave and better work-life conditions.
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      UAW is also focusing on all of those things (except maternity leave, US seems to be massively behind Europe in that area). Of course they failed to force the 32 hour workweek during the negotiations over the last few months but UAW workers seem to get more vacation days than Volvo in addition to much higher wages (and profit sharing bonuses etc.)and pensions.
      - kmlx 3y ago
        > Of course they failed to force the 32 hour workweek did you mean the 40 or 48 hour workweek?
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        No, one of the primary demands during the strikes a couple of months ago was a 32 hour workweek without any reduction in weekly pay. Instead they ended up negotiating higher 20-60% wages and improving some other benefits but no reduction in working hours.

73 points by robin_reala 3y ago

mcv 3y ago

https://archive.is/FkP0E https://archive.is/FkP0E

idaseing 3y ago
You're the best!

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

Predictable escalation to a stupid fight. The only solution, other than accepting unionisation (EDIT: collective bargaining, i.e. Swedish commercial culture), is franchising local operations. A week ago that was Sweden. Now it's the Nordics. Let this marinate through Christmas, and it may find home in European legislatures.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Unions in the rest of the UE aren't as strong or influential as those in Sweden. Maybe France.
- tacker2000 3y ago
  Austria has pretty strong unions.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    That doesn't mean Austrian Tesla workers are also unionized in a worker's council. Union busting is quite popular in Austria even by Austrian companies. Check out Anton Paar. You propose unionization there, you get fired on the spot since Austria is basically at-will employment for non-unionized workers. The Metal union is the only union with fangs in Austria, the rest are just paper tigers. And a solidarity strike in Austria, like in Sweden, would be incredibly unlikely as I don't think there's the legal framework for that in Austria, and in general, striking is not really part Austrian labor culture but more like bending over to wealthy industrialists donors to the conservative OVP party, which is why I put my money on France.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Unions in the rest of the UE aren't as strong or influential as those in Sweden No, but there's a unique alignment between labor (which is popular with voters) and industry (which fears Tesla) that could create real political momentum. This is a dumb alignment to force. Tesla is doing it.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > This is a dumb alignment to force, and Tesla is doing is needlessly. They might be worried that if they go down this route then they get set on a path to become their outdated competitors.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > might be worried that if they go down this route then they get set on a path to become their outdated competitors They petrified when they became inflexible. Adaptability, not orthodoxy, is how challengers win. To be clear, I don't think we'll see some pan-European labour movement against Tesla. But I do think it's becoming increasingly lucrative to take pot shots at the firm. If that starts happening in EU capitals, that's twenty-eight needless distractions to dispatch.
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages (of course lacking infrastructure would make it harder).
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages This might be the one move stupider than starting this fight, an innovator's dilemma [1] own goal. The Nordics are a high-income EV beachhead. Tesla has best-selling cars. This entire fight is currently intrigue. The risk is it metastasising into a political crisis. What makes that crisis a crisis is it threatens those sales. Decamping--in effect, surrendering--positively nukes them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma
- fransje26 3y ago
  I would not rule out Germany..
mongol 3y ago
The conflict is not about unionisation. It is about collective agreements.
- gadders 3y ago
  It's probably about left wing union activism and Twitter/X as well.
  - mongol 3y ago
    How so? It is pretty clear what the conflict is about, and it is not about anything of that. People may have their sentiment towards Tesla affected by Musk's antics, but it has nothing to do with the negotiation between the union and Tesla.
    - ActionHank 3y ago
      Clearly being sarcastic my guy
    - gadders 3y ago
      You don't think if he hadn't bought twitter/x the unions would have been quite so uncooperative?
      - SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Tesla has refused to even negotiate agreement for six years, that's not the union being uncooperative.
      - mongol 3y ago
        No I don't think it is part of it at all. It may motivate onlookers to cheer the union on, but it is immaterial to the conflict as such.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
filleokus 3y ago
In Sweden the CBA is a core part of unionisation. Swedish labor laws are actually fairly lax (depends on what you compare with ofc), where the state has handed over essentially legislative power to the "parties", the large union organisations and organisations of employers / companies. A little corporatistic if you want. These parties then negotiate and the resulting CBA's fills in blanks in the legislation (such as minimum salary levels etc) and other benefits. With a CBA in place, strikes are forbidden if the deal is kept. It's renegotiated every couple of years. Many companies / local unions also have local amendments (which are negotiated on a more local level). This model is generally appreciated by both the unions and large enterprisey companies. It gives stability to the companies. However... Tesla is of course not part of these employer organisations. A typical software startup or even fairly large (< ≈1000) white-collar employers are not part of these organisations either. About 10% of workers are outside of CBA (like me and probably the majority of developers in Stockholm). Those companies don't value having to commit to a CBA, might have different compensation schemes etc. The workers at these companies are typically happy and well compensated. It's not uncommon to see stuff like "Our pensions are according to the CBA" even if they don't sign the CBA. Employees of these non-CBAcompanies can still be in the union though, as you get benefits even without CBA, and part of the unemployment insurance is typically through the union. Further, according to both Swedish labour law and EU negative freedom of association principles, entering into a CBA is not required. But, the whole Swedish model depends on most employers signing the CBA, especially those in blue collar industries where the risk of exploitation is higher. No union is going to strike about e.g McKinsey not having a CBA, but Tesla mechanics I think are too close to home of the blue collar unions. I do wonder how this will end... Tesla signing an CBA seems out of the question, and I think the union might have overplayed their hand here. Many Tesla employees are not striking (nor want a CBA), many Tesla customers who might have had a good impression of the unions were pissed of when the union put a strike on e.g changing to winter tires of Tesla cars (even at non-tesla shops).

parski 3y ago

Get lost, Tesla.

Baguette5242 3y ago

In EU, Teslas were cool toys at the beginning but now it got this image of "that stupid Musk's product" and people are slowly but surely drifting away from it, especially considering the competition catching up. Surely, this other union thing is not going to improve the brand image.

zpeti 3y ago
You are literally making up numbers (Edit: facts) to fit your narrative on Musk. Well done. Teslas are doing just fine in Europe: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-europe-sales-figures/ Almost no-one I know cares about what Musk says on twitter, they just want an good electric car, and they buy them. The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-europe-s-best-selling-car-in-2023 https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tesla-model-y-likely-to-be-... Please - at least look up figures before posting stuff like this. Edit: it’s amazing I’m getting downvoted on HN which is supposedly a scientific community. The person I was replying to made claims which were wrong which I point out with numbers. Yet people are so obsessed with hating musk they downvote me.
- tobr 3y ago
  No numbers were mentioned in the comment you are replying to.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > The Model Y is the top selling car in europe. Comparing model sales doesn’t make a lot sense. Tesla only offers 2 different models in the 40-60k range. Now look at VW and then add very similar cars from Skoda, Audi and Cupra. Of course your’e still right Tesla’s market share in Europe has only been growing over the last couple of years.
  - peebeebee 3y ago
    Tesla model Y is selling like cakes here in Belgium. Lots of electric cars have waiting lists that can easily be a few months. Tesla has no problems here. Ordered mine, got it one week later. Tesla Model Y is also still the one of the best in terms of price vs value. Imho the only real competitors are the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 at the moment, but the model Y has them beaten in numbers on almost every front.

ivolimmen 3y ago

News at 11: Americans don't like unions and is fighting EU that does...

ffgjgf1 3y ago
Except most American automakers besides Tesla seem to have very strong unions. Which are also possibly more effective at maximizing their members wages than the unions in Europe.
- lawn 3y ago
  Swedish unions aren't primarily focused on wages but on other benefits, such as more support during paternity leave and better work-life conditions.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    UAW is also focusing on all of those things (except maternity leave, US seems to be massively behind Europe in that area). Of course they failed to force the 32 hour workweek during the negotiations over the last few months but UAW workers seem to get more vacation days than Volvo in addition to much higher wages (and profit sharing bonuses etc.)and pensions.
    - kmlx 3y ago
      > Of course they failed to force the 32 hour workweek did you mean the 40 or 48 hour workweek?
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        No, one of the primary demands during the strikes a couple of months ago was a 32 hour workweek without any reduction in weekly pay. Instead they ended up negotiating higher 20-60% wages and improving some other benefits but no reduction in working hours.