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But: EVs are already greener than cars running on gasoline even with our current electricity grid https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-opinion-renewables

But: EVs are already greener than cars running on gasoline even with our current electricity grid https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-opinion-renewables-will-power-future-of-us-energy/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-opinion-renewables-w...

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
and ~40% of electricity at this point is renewable
- vlovich123 3y ago
  It’s slightly less than that and about half of that is hydro. Wind/solar is growing too slowly
- robocat 3y ago
  That is irrelevant and a pernicious myth when buying an EV - that renewable power is already mostly all used. When adding load you need to consider where the extra power is generated from for your location. Also see sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38536601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38536601 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27317119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27317119 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26255833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26255833 Sorry: I'm probably answering a point that you are not making.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    Many people in my country charge at night. We get a cheaper rate - 7.5p/kWh vs 30p as the grid has excess capacity at that point.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      Hate to break it to you, but that's definitely not getting charged off solar then and possibly not wind either (depends on how the grid is being maintained).
      - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
        It is probably largely nuclear. Nuclear plants pretty much never get turned off since they're roughly free to run, and there's much less power used at night.
      - thebruce87m 3y ago
        It’s mostly wind: https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/
        robocat 3y ago
        Cool. It is misleading picking Scotland - power is fungible across borders. Otherwise I could claim I was green because my house is next to a hydroelectric dam and I could claim the guys house next to the coal fired plant is bad. the graphs shows interconnects but I couldn't see any power exports to Europe. I presume if there is extra wind generation at 5AM it gets exported to countries that are waking up.
        thebruce87m 3y ago
        I live in Scotland, where should I pick?
        robocat 3y ago
        The relevant figures are for the UK as a whole. If you add load then that marginal extra power comes from the UK network. The interconnects with Europe make it more difficult to know the marginal difference in CO2 production. I live in the South Island of New Zealand which has huge hydropower - power is sent to the North Island via the undersea DC link: https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and-market-data/hvdc-transfer https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and... So if I add load then what matters is where the marginal extra power demanded is generated from across the whole network (even if that is in the North Island).
vlovich123 3y ago
Yes, fossil fuel power plants are more efficient than ICE, but not meaningfully more [1] > The total WTW efficiency of gasoline ICEV ranges between 11-27 %, > diesel ICEV ranges from 25 % to 37 % > The EV fed by a natural gas power plant shows the highest WTW efficiency which ranges from 13 % to 31 % > While the EV supplied by coal-fired and diesel power plants have approximately the same WTW efficiency ranging between 13 % to 27 % and 12 % to 25 %, respectively So yes, EVs are slightly greener but the distinction isn't that big when you're talking about global warming (like 10-20% better). When powered by renewables/nuclear/hydro the efficiency is substantially better but even more important is that it's carbon free. As for your bloomberg piece, it's an impressive piece of fiction. The scenario outlined of replacing ALL cars with EVs by 2030, doubling renewable capacity & replacing coal with natural gas still only has our carbon footprint reduced by 30%. But there's no way we're going to reach that. EVs represent ~1% of cars on the road in the US and politicians are talking about banning sales of new ICE vehicles only in 2035. That's a huge amount of cars on the road and it's likely that existing ICE vehicles will be maintained & there will be massive resistance to banning them outright. So maybe we might get to 100% EVs on the road by 2050. We're not replacing fossil fuels in our energy grid with renewables by then - it's just technically not possible. [1] https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020SJRUE..24..669A/abstract https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020SJRUE..24..669A/abstra...
- iwontberude 3y ago
  Don't forget there is infrastructure and losses due to heat between the power plant and the car charging port.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    I believe that’s accounted for in these numbers, no? Wheel to wheel efficiency I believe is all losses between source and moving the car, although it’s unclear if WTW includes transportation costs for fuels (id imagine yes based on the name but would require further reading)
    - iwontberude 3y ago

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago

and ~40% of electricity at this point is renewable

vlovich123 3y ago
It’s slightly less than that and about half of that is hydro. Wind/solar is growing too slowly
robocat 3y ago
That is irrelevant and a pernicious myth when buying an EV - that renewable power is already mostly all used. When adding load you need to consider where the extra power is generated from for your location. Also see sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38536601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38536601 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27317119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27317119 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26255833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26255833 Sorry: I'm probably answering a point that you are not making.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Many people in my country charge at night. We get a cheaper rate - 7.5p/kWh vs 30p as the grid has excess capacity at that point.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Hate to break it to you, but that's definitely not getting charged off solar then and possibly not wind either (depends on how the grid is being maintained).
    - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      It is probably largely nuclear. Nuclear plants pretty much never get turned off since they're roughly free to run, and there's much less power used at night.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      It’s mostly wind: https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/
      - robocat 3y ago
        Cool. It is misleading picking Scotland - power is fungible across borders. Otherwise I could claim I was green because my house is next to a hydroelectric dam and I could claim the guys house next to the coal fired plant is bad. the graphs shows interconnects but I couldn't see any power exports to Europe. I presume if there is extra wind generation at 5AM it gets exported to countries that are waking up.
        thebruce87m 3y ago
        I live in Scotland, where should I pick?
        robocat 3y ago
        The relevant figures are for the UK as a whole. If you add load then that marginal extra power comes from the UK network. The interconnects with Europe make it more difficult to know the marginal difference in CO2 production. I live in the South Island of New Zealand which has huge hydropower - power is sent to the North Island via the undersea DC link: https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and-market-data/hvdc-transfer https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and... So if I add load then what matters is where the marginal extra power demanded is generated from across the whole network (even if that is in the North Island).

vlovich123 3y ago

Yes, fossil fuel power plants are more efficient than ICE, but not meaningfully more [1] > The total WTW efficiency of gasoline ICEV ranges between 11-27 %, > diesel ICEV ranges from 25 % to 37 % > The EV fed by a natural gas power plant shows the highest WTW efficiency which ranges from 13 % to 31 % > While the EV supplied by coal-fired and diesel power plants have approximately the same WTW efficiency ranging between 13 % to 27 % and 12 % to 25 %, respectively So yes, EVs are slightly greener but the distinction isn't that big when you're talking about global warming (like 10-20% better). When powered by renewables/nuclear/hydro the efficiency is substantially better but even more important is that it's carbon free. As for your bloomberg piece, it's an impressive piece of fiction. The scenario outlined of replacing ALL cars with EVs by 2030, doubling renewable capacity & replacing coal with natural gas still only has our carbon footprint reduced by 30%. But there's no way we're going to reach that. EVs represent ~1% of cars on the road in the US and politicians are talking about banning sales of new ICE vehicles only in 2035. That's a huge amount of cars on the road and it's likely that existing ICE vehicles will be maintained & there will be massive resistance to banning them outright. So maybe we might get to 100% EVs on the road by 2050. We're not replacing fossil fuels in our energy grid with renewables by then - it's just technically not possible. [1] https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020SJRUE..24..669A/abstract https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020SJRUE..24..669A/abstra...

iwontberude 3y ago
Don't forget there is infrastructure and losses due to heat between the power plant and the car charging port.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I believe that’s accounted for in these numbers, no? Wheel to wheel efficiency I believe is all losses between source and moving the car, although it’s unclear if WTW includes transportation costs for fuels (id imagine yes based on the name but would require further reading)
  - iwontberude 3y ago