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Norway is projected to produce $122,421,000,000 worth of oil next year, against a population of only 5 million people. That's about $24,400 in annual oil reven

Norway is projected to produce $122,421,000,000 worth of oil next year, against a population of only 5 million people. That's about $24,400 in annual oil revenue per citizen. Their sovereign wealth fund (profits from oil re-invested into the global stock market and real estate) is about $270,000 per citizen. Take the risk-free rate of putting that in US Treasuries and it's an additional $13,500 per citizen per year. Judged in the context of Petro-states with tiny populations there is still a lot to like about Norway. But it's important to realize that UAE, Qatar and Saudi Arabia are realistically their peers, not countries like the US. Norway was a lower income country until they discovered an infinite money glitch in the North Sea. When looking at the country, it's critical to realize their oil wealth enables them to have the government programs and society they currently enjoy, rather than mistakenly thinking those programs are the source of their wealth.

vages 3y ago
The most interesting thing is that Norway does not tax oil profits – it taxes the oils “inherent value”, giving the oil company the profits. Norway has implemented land value taxation for using natural resources. It’s been that way since hydropower was established more than 100 years ago. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/05/17/norway-the-once-and-future-georgist-kingdom/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/05/17/norway-the-once-and...
hilux 3y ago
And have UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia achieved what Norway has? (Where did anyone say that social programs are the source of Norway's wealth?!) No one is acknowledging the US data I posted. Even if the US is not as rich per capita as Norway is, can we learn something from Norway (about investment in education and healthcare) with the resources we do have? BTW, US per-capita healthcare cost is much, much higher than Norway's, and US life expectancy is much lower.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > BTW, US per-capita healthcare cost is much, much higher than Norway's, and US life expectancy is much lower. But that's the issue -- it's not a matter of allocating the money. The US is already spending it. The question is, how do you make it more cost efficient? "Just do what Norway does" doesn't solve anything for two reasons. The first is that it doesn't tell you if that's the right answer, only that what Norway is doing is better than the status quo in the US. But the status quo in the US is uniquely dysfunctional, so that's not a high bar. You still don't know if it's better to do what Norway does or what Singapore does (same life expectancy as Norway, much different system) or some third thing which could hypothetically be better than either of them. The second is that it doesn't solve the political issue in the US, which is that all of the people making money from the status quo don't want it to change. It doesn't matter if the proposal is a public healthcare system or a market system with actual price transparency or something else entirely, until you can overcome the political inertia of the incumbent system. And these feed into each other. Because it's obvious that the existing US system is inefficient, but it's not obvious which of the potentially more efficient systems to replace it with, so the people with different ideas fight against each other instead of fighting with each other against the status quo.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system. What we find shocking is that the US appears uniquely unable to fix these things among developed countries despite the vast wealth and resources. There's a level of political dysfunction that is really hard to watch, but also incredibly hard to ignore. EDIT: To give one example that I personally find shocking: That Medicare has restrictions on the extent of its ability to negotiate drug prices. I get your point that this is in part due to entrenched interests as seen with the attacks on the recent attempt to fix this issue by using powers under the Inflation Reduction Act, but that even chipping away on things like that is proving as hard as it is, is bizarre seen from the outside and the new ability to negotiate prices is still ridiculously limited.
    - hilux 3y ago
      Check out the tsunami of white American kids refusing to get even the most basic vaccines (because Jesus) ... polio and other long-forgotten diseases are about to make a big comeback. NY Times had a big story about this. "Insane" doesn't do it justice. We need new words.
      - vidarh 3y ago
        > "Insane" doesn't do it justice. We need new words. Norwegian has another US-inspired term for crazy: "Helt Texas" ("completely Texas") [1] (Though to be fair, that is mostly used for a hyperbolic allusion to the Hollywood version of the wild west, and translating it as something being "wild west" would perhaps better carry the meaning, but I still find it funny) [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/26/how-texas-became-norwegian-for-crazy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/2...
      - DeathArrow 3y ago
        >Check out the tsunami of white American kids refusing to get even the most basic vaccines (because Jesus) There's no need to be racist.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >And have UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia achieved what Norway has? What does Norway have that UAE should desire?
vidarh 3y ago
> enables them to have the government programs and society they currently enjoy, rather than mistakenly thinking those programs are the source of their wealth. The person you replied to didn't seem to imply they were, but conversely asked why the US is performing as it is given its wealth compared to Norway. Average salaries in the US are far higher than in Norway, and GDP per capita, so you would think the US could afford to do better on more metrics I'll also note that many of the largest welfare reforms in Norway predate the oil wealth, with the largest chunk of the reforms towards the current welfare model being passed in 1966, a year before the first successful oil well in Norwegian sector. Yet while some things are probably better in the US (average house sizes are larger, I think), as someone who grew up in Norway and has visited the US many times and enjoys being in the US as a visitor, and currently lives in the UK, the UK is as far towards "American conditions" I can stomach. Dysfunctional but at least still has somewhat functioning public services. Why can't the US even match UK public services? The US is certainly significantly richer than the UK. "Amerikanske tilstander" - "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters. Even a lot of conservative voters have historically been worried about "American conditions" because it has a history of being seen as lacking - ironically given far higher levels of faith in the US - in Christian compassion, which has made it unpopular even far into the Norwegian right-wing (e.g. quite a few Norwegian welfare reforms were passed in the 1960s under a center-right government that included the four center-right and right-wing parties of the time)
- greenhexagon 3y ago
  > "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters. Neat, I always enjoy learning about the various bits of propaganda and stereotypes that exist in different cultures and this was a new term for me. I've many times had fairly entertaining conversations with Scandinavians about what life in the US is actually like compared to their expectations. They always seem a bit in disbelief at how safe, comfortable, easy and secure life is in reality. I've learned to reassure them that things would be different if I were an entry level worker at Walmart or McDonald's, and that that life might look more similar to their expectations.
  - 3y ago
doktrin 3y ago
> Norway was a lower income country until they discovered an infinite money glitch What metric are you using to arrive at this conclusion? Norway had roughly the same PPP GDP per capita as its neighbors (Sweden, Denmark) for 150 years prior to the discovery of oil.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> Norway was a lower income country Lower than now? Sure. However it still was one of the richest countries in Europe going back at least to ~1900 (just the gap wasn’t that big as now)
creer 3y ago
> not countries like the US It can't seriously be argued that the US are not a rich country? In GDP, the US are in fact in the same class as Norway. And for Norway part of that goes to the fund, while the US government runs a deficit. As for Norway specifically, their sovereign wealth fund is there specifically so that the country does NOT use this wealth quickly (or much at all for now). At any rate, no, the US could absolutely do much better.

vages 3y ago

The most interesting thing is that Norway does not tax oil profits – it taxes the oils “inherent value”, giving the oil company the profits. Norway has implemented land value taxation for using natural resources. It’s been that way since hydropower was established more than 100 years ago. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/05/17/norway-the-once-and-future-georgist-kingdom/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/05/17/norway-the-once-and...

hilux 3y ago

And have UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia achieved what Norway has? (Where did anyone say that social programs are the source of Norway's wealth?!) No one is acknowledging the US data I posted. Even if the US is not as rich per capita as Norway is, can we learn something from Norway (about investment in education and healthcare) with the resources we do have? BTW, US per-capita healthcare cost is much, much higher than Norway's, and US life expectancy is much lower.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> BTW, US per-capita healthcare cost is much, much higher than Norway's, and US life expectancy is much lower. But that's the issue -- it's not a matter of allocating the money. The US is already spending it. The question is, how do you make it more cost efficient? "Just do what Norway does" doesn't solve anything for two reasons. The first is that it doesn't tell you if that's the right answer, only that what Norway is doing is better than the status quo in the US. But the status quo in the US is uniquely dysfunctional, so that's not a high bar. You still don't know if it's better to do what Norway does or what Singapore does (same life expectancy as Norway, much different system) or some third thing which could hypothetically be better than either of them. The second is that it doesn't solve the political issue in the US, which is that all of the people making money from the status quo don't want it to change. It doesn't matter if the proposal is a public healthcare system or a market system with actual price transparency or something else entirely, until you can overcome the political inertia of the incumbent system. And these feed into each other. Because it's obvious that the existing US system is inefficient, but it's not obvious which of the potentially more efficient systems to replace it with, so the people with different ideas fight against each other instead of fighting with each other against the status quo.
- vidarh 3y ago
  I think the rest of the developed world would cheer on if the US just copied any of the dozens of other models for universal healthcare that produce better outcomes cheaper than the current US system. What we find shocking is that the US appears uniquely unable to fix these things among developed countries despite the vast wealth and resources. There's a level of political dysfunction that is really hard to watch, but also incredibly hard to ignore. EDIT: To give one example that I personally find shocking: That Medicare has restrictions on the extent of its ability to negotiate drug prices. I get your point that this is in part due to entrenched interests as seen with the attacks on the recent attempt to fix this issue by using powers under the Inflation Reduction Act, but that even chipping away on things like that is proving as hard as it is, is bizarre seen from the outside and the new ability to negotiate prices is still ridiculously limited.
  - hilux 3y ago
    Check out the tsunami of white American kids refusing to get even the most basic vaccines (because Jesus) ... polio and other long-forgotten diseases are about to make a big comeback. NY Times had a big story about this. "Insane" doesn't do it justice. We need new words.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      > "Insane" doesn't do it justice. We need new words. Norwegian has another US-inspired term for crazy: "Helt Texas" ("completely Texas") [1] (Though to be fair, that is mostly used for a hyperbolic allusion to the Hollywood version of the wild west, and translating it as something being "wild west" would perhaps better carry the meaning, but I still find it funny) [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/26/how-texas-became-norwegian-for-crazy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/2...
    - DeathArrow 3y ago
      >Check out the tsunami of white American kids refusing to get even the most basic vaccines (because Jesus) There's no need to be racist.
DeathArrow 3y ago
>And have UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia achieved what Norway has? What does Norway have that UAE should desire?

vidarh 3y ago

> enables them to have the government programs and society they currently enjoy, rather than mistakenly thinking those programs are the source of their wealth. The person you replied to didn't seem to imply they were, but conversely asked why the US is performing as it is given its wealth compared to Norway. Average salaries in the US are far higher than in Norway, and GDP per capita, so you would think the US could afford to do better on more metrics I'll also note that many of the largest welfare reforms in Norway predate the oil wealth, with the largest chunk of the reforms towards the current welfare model being passed in 1966, a year before the first successful oil well in Norwegian sector. Yet while some things are probably better in the US (average house sizes are larger, I think), as someone who grew up in Norway and has visited the US many times and enjoys being in the US as a visitor, and currently lives in the UK, the UK is as far towards "American conditions" I can stomach. Dysfunctional but at least still has somewhat functioning public services. Why can't the US even match UK public services? The US is certainly significantly richer than the UK. "Amerikanske tilstander" - "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters. Even a lot of conservative voters have historically been worried about "American conditions" because it has a history of being seen as lacking - ironically given far higher levels of faith in the US - in Christian compassion, which has made it unpopular even far into the Norwegian right-wing (e.g. quite a few Norwegian welfare reforms were passed in the 1960s under a center-right government that included the four center-right and right-wing parties of the time)

greenhexagon 3y ago
> "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters. Neat, I always enjoy learning about the various bits of propaganda and stereotypes that exist in different cultures and this was a new term for me. I've many times had fairly entertaining conversations with Scandinavians about what life in the US is actually like compared to their expectations. They always seem a bit in disbelief at how safe, comfortable, easy and secure life is in reality. I've learned to reassure them that things would be different if I were an entry level worker at Walmart or McDonald's, and that that life might look more similar to their expectations.
- 3y ago

doktrin 3y ago

> Norway was a lower income country until they discovered an infinite money glitch What metric are you using to arrive at this conclusion? Norway had roughly the same PPP GDP per capita as its neighbors (Sweden, Denmark) for 150 years prior to the discovery of oil.

ffgjgf1 3y ago

> Norway was a lower income country Lower than now? Sure. However it still was one of the richest countries in Europe going back at least to ~1900 (just the gap wasn’t that big as now)

creer 3y ago

> not countries like the US It can't seriously be argued that the US are not a rich country? In GDP, the US are in fact in the same class as Norway. And for Norway part of that goes to the fund, while the US government runs a deficit. As for Norway specifically, their sovereign wealth fund is there specifically so that the country does NOT use this wealth quickly (or much at all for now). At any rate, no, the US could absolutely do much better.