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Is there any practical strategy that approaches this complexity at all? I have never played. But I assume this claim is just that you can technically create som

Is there any practical strategy that approaches this complexity at all? I have never played. But I assume this claim is just that you can technically create some stateful stuff if you’re explicitly not trying to win

sciolist 3y ago
Here's a paper on creating a Turing machine in Magic: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828
x86x87 3y ago
It's not that easy. There are strategies but they depend on the game format (standard, legacy, modern, etc) and on a deep understanding of the game meta. You cannot devise a strategy that works under any conditions. Lookup the rules + understand that new abilities and cards are introduced all the time.
saghm 3y ago
I'm not sure what level of complexity you're looking for, but there are some pretty complex combos that have been viable over the years, even in formats that don't use some of the older "broken" cards. One popular strategy for a while in the "Modern" format, which doesn't allow cards for the first 10 years or so of the game, used a mechanic called "Storm" where a spell would be copied for every spell you previously cast in the same turn. A card called Grapeshot had this ability and did 1 damage, so the deck played creatures that made your spells cost less mana and spells that gave you extra mana or draw cards, and the goal was to cast 19 spells and then grapeshot your opponent for their entire starting life total of 20, often as early as on their fourth turn. It was consistent enough that it was a staple in the format for at least a few years (although I haven't kept up with the meta as much for a few years now). Another higher variance but potentially even faster combo used a creature called Griselbrand, which let you pay 7 life to draw 7 cards, a bunch of mana "rituals" like storm, and used a card called Nourishing Shoal to let you exile certain cards from your hand to gain life. The win condition was typically to draw at least 7 lands and cast a creature that let you discard a land to do 3 damage, and it could potentially do this on the very first turn, although eventually one of the cards that was necessary for it to function got banned in modern, although by then Griselbrand decks weren't really ever played due to there being far more consistent options with better ability to deal with an opponent trying to thwart their game plan. If you include Legacy (which allows cards from any point in the history of the game but still with a custom ban list) or Vintage (where all cards are allowed but some are "restricted" to only one copy instead of the typical 4 per deck), there are even more powerful combos you can take advantage of. Combo decks have always and likely will always be a part of the meta for most formats, although to varying degrees depending on how many cards the format has available and how effective it happens to be in the current meta. It's considered one of the three main deck archetypes along with "control" decks that attempt to shut down what the opponent is trying to do and slowly build an advantage over time and "aggro" which use a more straightforward approach of just attacking the opponent with creatures or spells (or both). Not everything cleanly fits into one of those strategies of course, and even a deck that has a win condition that fits into one archetype might dip into the other as a backup plan (e.g. a combo deck with control elements that help it buy time if it can't get off the combo as quickly as it would prefer, or a control deck with some efficient creatures that it can use for a surprise attack if the circumstance makes sense), but even in a setting like playing a few games at a card shop on a Friday night, seeing a combo deck with the level of complexity described above isn't really uncommon at all. That said, I've read that a lot of the hardest cards to program tend to be the ones that subvert the basic expectations of the game. One infamous example that comes to mind is a creature that after being cast added an extra turn after yours where you controlled your opponent, after which they took their regular turn and the turn order resumed its previous alternation. Programming that would require adding in the ability to show one player's hidden game state to the other, let them make any sort of decisions using their cards that the player would normally do (short of literally conceding the game) and inserting an extra turn in the order with that weird control mechanism...all just for one card out of tens of thousands! Obviously most cards are not that complex, and Arena specifically doesn't attempt to support literally every card in existence and instead supports cards going back to its initial stable release along with explicitly chosen cards added to special Arena-only sets in order to introduce them, but when its an explicit rule that the text on the card overrides the normal rules of the game when they disagree, it very quickly gets to the point where you need to consider that there will likely be an edge cast for almost any possible state transition.
squeaky-clean 3y ago
Turing machines? Not really. Infinite loops[0]? All the time. The designers generally try to avoid those being legal in "Standard" unless it's extremely unlikely to happen (only the most recent few years of cards are legal in tournament play. In casual play anything can be legal if your group is okay with it). A common trope is to have a card that allows you to create mana, and then a way to infinitely bring that card back from the discard pile, allowing for infinite mana. Then you play a card that says something like "spend X mana to deal X damage" and you deal a trillion damage. [0] the above commenter is correct that a true infinite loop is not allowed. But you're allowed to create a scenario where an infinite loop happens according to a repeating choice you can make (essentially a while loop) and repeat as much as you want within the match timer while still allowing time for your damage card. The general etiquette is just to say "I can do this a billion times and so I deal a billion damage". I've actually been at a local (mostly informal) tournament where someone with an Elf deck managed to pump their life into the thousands (you start with 20 or 40 depending on the ruleset), and his opponent with a Goblin deck got an infinite combo for infinite damage. But the Elf player refused to accept "I can do this infinity times" and made him actually try to perform his card combo over a thousand times before the round timer ran out. Goblin deck did not win.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  > I've actually been at a local (mostly informal) tournament where someone with an Elf deck managed to pump their life into the thousands (you start with 20 or 40 depending on the ruleset), and his opponent with a Goblin deck got an infinite combo for infinite damage. But the Elf player refused to accept "I can do this infinity times" and made him actually try to perform his card combo over a thousand times before the round timer ran out. Goblin deck did not win. So the Goblin-deck owner allowed the Elf-deck owner to do a "I give myself 1000 life" with a combo but the Elf-deck owner wouldn't let the Goblin-deck owner do the same with damage? That's kind of a jerk move if so.
  - nailuj 3y ago
    If the Elf can give themselves infinite life in response to the infinite damage, then they have essentially won, because however much damage the Goblin would deal, they can just go "OK, but before that damage applies I give myself enough life to survive". The Goblin deck can never reach a game state where they win. If the combos are sequential and the Elf has to commit to a certain number of life before the Goblin commits to a certain number of damage, then the Goblin would win. There are some other possible intricacies (can they give themselves 1 life infinite times? or infinite life once?) From the mechanics of how the game usually goes, I would assume the first case applies here.
sdenton4 3y ago
Let us listen to the sweet stories of Sherazad... https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=980 https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Discussion.aspx?mult...

sciolist 3y ago

Here's a paper on creating a Turing machine in Magic: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828

x86x87 3y ago

It's not that easy. There are strategies but they depend on the game format (standard, legacy, modern, etc) and on a deep understanding of the game meta. You cannot devise a strategy that works under any conditions. Lookup the rules + understand that new abilities and cards are introduced all the time.

saghm 3y ago

I'm not sure what level of complexity you're looking for, but there are some pretty complex combos that have been viable over the years, even in formats that don't use some of the older "broken" cards. One popular strategy for a while in the "Modern" format, which doesn't allow cards for the first 10 years or so of the game, used a mechanic called "Storm" where a spell would be copied for every spell you previously cast in the same turn. A card called Grapeshot had this ability and did 1 damage, so the deck played creatures that made your spells cost less mana and spells that gave you extra mana or draw cards, and the goal was to cast 19 spells and then grapeshot your opponent for their entire starting life total of 20, often as early as on their fourth turn. It was consistent enough that it was a staple in the format for at least a few years (although I haven't kept up with the meta as much for a few years now). Another higher variance but potentially even faster combo used a creature called Griselbrand, which let you pay 7 life to draw 7 cards, a bunch of mana "rituals" like storm, and used a card called Nourishing Shoal to let you exile certain cards from your hand to gain life. The win condition was typically to draw at least 7 lands and cast a creature that let you discard a land to do 3 damage, and it could potentially do this on the very first turn, although eventually one of the cards that was necessary for it to function got banned in modern, although by then Griselbrand decks weren't really ever played due to there being far more consistent options with better ability to deal with an opponent trying to thwart their game plan. If you include Legacy (which allows cards from any point in the history of the game but still with a custom ban list) or Vintage (where all cards are allowed but some are "restricted" to only one copy instead of the typical 4 per deck), there are even more powerful combos you can take advantage of. Combo decks have always and likely will always be a part of the meta for most formats, although to varying degrees depending on how many cards the format has available and how effective it happens to be in the current meta. It's considered one of the three main deck archetypes along with "control" decks that attempt to shut down what the opponent is trying to do and slowly build an advantage over time and "aggro" which use a more straightforward approach of just attacking the opponent with creatures or spells (or both). Not everything cleanly fits into one of those strategies of course, and even a deck that has a win condition that fits into one archetype might dip into the other as a backup plan (e.g. a combo deck with control elements that help it buy time if it can't get off the combo as quickly as it would prefer, or a control deck with some efficient creatures that it can use for a surprise attack if the circumstance makes sense), but even in a setting like playing a few games at a card shop on a Friday night, seeing a combo deck with the level of complexity described above isn't really uncommon at all. That said, I've read that a lot of the hardest cards to program tend to be the ones that subvert the basic expectations of the game. One infamous example that comes to mind is a creature that after being cast added an extra turn after yours where you controlled your opponent, after which they took their regular turn and the turn order resumed its previous alternation. Programming that would require adding in the ability to show one player's hidden game state to the other, let them make any sort of decisions using their cards that the player would normally do (short of literally conceding the game) and inserting an extra turn in the order with that weird control mechanism...all just for one card out of tens of thousands! Obviously most cards are not that complex, and Arena specifically doesn't attempt to support literally every card in existence and instead supports cards going back to its initial stable release along with explicitly chosen cards added to special Arena-only sets in order to introduce them, but when its an explicit rule that the text on the card overrides the normal rules of the game when they disagree, it very quickly gets to the point where you need to consider that there will likely be an edge cast for almost any possible state transition.

squeaky-clean 3y ago

Turing machines? Not really. Infinite loops[0]? All the time. The designers generally try to avoid those being legal in "Standard" unless it's extremely unlikely to happen (only the most recent few years of cards are legal in tournament play. In casual play anything can be legal if your group is okay with it). A common trope is to have a card that allows you to create mana, and then a way to infinitely bring that card back from the discard pile, allowing for infinite mana. Then you play a card that says something like "spend X mana to deal X damage" and you deal a trillion damage. [0] the above commenter is correct that a true infinite loop is not allowed. But you're allowed to create a scenario where an infinite loop happens according to a repeating choice you can make (essentially a while loop) and repeat as much as you want within the match timer while still allowing time for your damage card. The general etiquette is just to say "I can do this a billion times and so I deal a billion damage". I've actually been at a local (mostly informal) tournament where someone with an Elf deck managed to pump their life into the thousands (you start with 20 or 40 depending on the ruleset), and his opponent with a Goblin deck got an infinite combo for infinite damage. But the Elf player refused to accept "I can do this infinity times" and made him actually try to perform his card combo over a thousand times before the round timer ran out. Goblin deck did not win.

aidenn0 3y ago
> I've actually been at a local (mostly informal) tournament where someone with an Elf deck managed to pump their life into the thousands (you start with 20 or 40 depending on the ruleset), and his opponent with a Goblin deck got an infinite combo for infinite damage. But the Elf player refused to accept "I can do this infinity times" and made him actually try to perform his card combo over a thousand times before the round timer ran out. Goblin deck did not win. So the Goblin-deck owner allowed the Elf-deck owner to do a "I give myself 1000 life" with a combo but the Elf-deck owner wouldn't let the Goblin-deck owner do the same with damage? That's kind of a jerk move if so.
- nailuj 3y ago
  If the Elf can give themselves infinite life in response to the infinite damage, then they have essentially won, because however much damage the Goblin would deal, they can just go "OK, but before that damage applies I give myself enough life to survive". The Goblin deck can never reach a game state where they win. If the combos are sequential and the Elf has to commit to a certain number of life before the Goblin commits to a certain number of damage, then the Goblin would win. There are some other possible intricacies (can they give themselves 1 life infinite times? or infinite life once?) From the mechanics of how the game usually goes, I would assume the first case applies here.

sdenton4 3y ago

Let us listen to the sweet stories of Sherazad... https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=980 https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Discussion.aspx?mult...