6 ms·

Apple and Valve: Could frenemies really team up?

14 points by rmah 15y ago

tzaman 15y ago
I hope not, Valve is doing just fine without Apple.
- quadrant 15y ago
  Well, if Apple want to win the [OS/hardware/whatever] war then all they need to do spend a chunk of their cash stockpile and ensure that Episode 3 launches on OSX first. Or more seriously, if Valve wanted a hardware partner then why wouldn't they work with Apple?
  - nirvana 15y ago
    Your comment reminds me of when Bungie went up for sale. They'd found success making great games for the Mac, and were showing the early work on Halo to great acclaim. When Apple had the chance (I presume) to buy them they assumed that it didn't matter who bought them because they were a Mac only shop... then Microsoft bought them and Halo never made it to the mac. I hope Apple has learned from that lesson, but on the other hand, Apple is an environment focused on operating systems and hardware, and not necessarily run by the right people to be deciding which games to green light.
    - 2arrs2ells 15y ago
      Halo did get released for Mac (albeit two years after the PC release)
      - Drakim 15y ago
        That's pretty much the same as "never" being released. After that much time games lose their steam and people start talking about a sequel instead. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it still sells after two years, but the whole "brand new game that takes the market with storm" phrase has long since passed.
- ConstantineXVI 15y ago
  Now yes, but Apple's put them in a tricky position for the future. Thanks to the influence of iOS, Steam will be in a rather tight spot once Windows 8 rolls out (as the WinStore will be the primary source for games by default; exclusive on ARM); the presence of the App Store on OSX isn't doing them any favors either. On the flip side, if Apple wants to take the consoles head-on (a fairly safe assumption), they're going to need strong console-level games. Partnering with Valve puts them on mostly equal footing with Microsoft and Sony in terms of publisher relationships, as well as a few headliner exclusives.
  - tzaman 15y ago
    you are right, the position is tricky, but I think partnering with Apple is the easy way out for Valve (and they'll probably loose their identity in the long run - probably not a bad thing, but still). They have a nice user base and if they'll adapt to WinStore coming out with proper counter-measures and marketing approaches (and maybe some new ideas), I think there's nothing they should be afraid of.
    - ConstantineXVI 15y ago
      How doe you expect Steam to "adapt" to being near-totally shut out of their primary market? Steamworks is a moot point when Win8/MountainLion comes with Xbox Live/Game Center integration as a selling point. Like it or not, Steam's days as-is are numbered and Valve needs a new platform. Could be Apple, could be their own but they have to do something if they want a chance of surviving.
      - tzaman 15y ago
        Let me answer that with a question: How was Dropbox able to "survive" when Apple has their cloud (and I'm sure Windows will feature something similar as well)? If I remember correctly, Apple wanted to buy them and they said no. The bottom line, it can be done. Others have proven it.
        ConstantineXVI 15y ago
rmah 15y ago
Perhaps there is going to be an Apple gaming console with Valve or perhaps they are expanding Apple TV to include it?
pinaceae 15y ago
I think iOS is (again) the game changer here. The iPad is making serious inroads as a gaming platform, and not just for casual games. The recent release of Max Payne for iPad shows how fast this platform is evolving. Valve is not present on iOS, and under current app store rules cannot expand their portfolio easily there. Now, talks between Apple and Valve might just solve this conundrum. Where does a potential Apple console come into play? Why do you need one at all? Take Apple TV and Airplay. Extend the iPad game to the TV. Already possible. Only thing that sucks is controllers - if you could use a classic controller (via Bluetooth) with that iPad/aTV setup you suddenly have a pretty powerful console, and a portable one too.
- ConstantineXVI 15y ago
  Airplay as-is isn't really suitable for gaming. It's impressive, but even under best network conditions you still have to deal with a mild amount of lag. The ideal solution would be to run games on the Apple TV itself (relatively simple, given that the aTV is effectively a headless iPad 2); using the iPad as a glorified controller.
  - mitchty 15y ago
    Yep completely agree, I've never been able to get airplay working well over wifi. The round trip time means you've about ~0.8 seconds of latency between what you see and what is on the native display.
nirvana 15y ago
I think Apple should buy Valve. Valve may not be for sale. But Valve's creativity is off the charts- they make great games. Apple, on the other hand, knows how to deliver quality software, something valve has not mastered. Steam is "great" in the sense that it was the first and its so far the most reasonable game store, but it is terrible in terms of bugs and performance[1]. Valves games are often unstable[2]. Game developers just seem to have a much higher tolerance for bugs (or an environment where the publisher makes them ship and then the teams disband so there's nobody there to fix the bugs.) At this point, I'd much rather buy a game thru the Mac App Store than thru steam. I don't think that Valve is for sale, but they'd make a great independant division within Apple. You want a wearable computer? Well, here's the best hardware company in the world. [1] Just so people know what I'm talking about. Often when launching Team Fortress Steam will throw up a dialog "Preparing to launch Team Fortress 2", that stays there from 60seconds to 7 minutes. This occurs without regard to the quality of the internet connection (have seen it both on 5megabits with high latency and 40 megabits with low latency) During this period the TF2 executable has not yet been launched, and steam is apparently doing nothing at all. Then of course TF2 takes quiet awhile to get to the point where its ready to play. [2] Not so much with games like Portal 2 which are done and not constantly revisited, but TF2 crashes regularly, sometimes there are releases that are completely unplayable on macs, and you just have to wait til the next patch. Steam itself crashes, is interminably slow (When really its mostly web pages, couldn't they have at least used webkit?) regularly wedges itself, and can't seem to download and install games to reliably. (usually it works but the rate of failure is way too high.)
- prezjordan 15y ago
  Regarding points 1 and 2, I find it amazing how prevalent these issues are, yet any gamer will say "doesn't happen to me." I really don't understand how one can blatantly ignore such poor performance.
  - andypants 15y ago
    That's because these problems are prevalent on macs. Steam running on windows is just fine, which is the majority of steam users. Valve has been developing for windows far longer than for macs, and tf2 is the one of the first mac games that valve has developed.
stiletto 15y ago
> Until the growth and success of games on the iOS platform, Apple and gaming were just two words that did not go together This glosses over a major turning point in gaming history. Bungie debuted Halo at MACWORLD in January 2000: http://www.macobserver.com/news/00/january/000104/bungiemov.shtml http://www.macobserver.com/news/00/january/000104/bungiemov.... Six months later, Bungie was purchased by Microsoft. The most relevant consequence of that deal was that Halo, a major turning point in gaming evolution, was on Microsoft's new console: Xbox. Edit: forgot to make the obvious point. Mac was on the verge of becoming very relevant to gaming over a decade ago, and Microsoft stole that thunder for their entrance to the console races.
- talmand 15y ago
  My memory of that is that Apple had their shot and passed. Apple chose the wrong direction in that turning point. The amount of Halo's importance to gaming history is a debate for another time.

14 points by rmah 15y ago

tzaman 15y ago

I hope not, Valve is doing just fine without Apple.

quadrant 15y ago
Well, if Apple want to win the [OS/hardware/whatever] war then all they need to do spend a chunk of their cash stockpile and ensure that Episode 3 launches on OSX first. Or more seriously, if Valve wanted a hardware partner then why wouldn't they work with Apple?
- nirvana 15y ago
  Your comment reminds me of when Bungie went up for sale. They'd found success making great games for the Mac, and were showing the early work on Halo to great acclaim. When Apple had the chance (I presume) to buy them they assumed that it didn't matter who bought them because they were a Mac only shop... then Microsoft bought them and Halo never made it to the mac. I hope Apple has learned from that lesson, but on the other hand, Apple is an environment focused on operating systems and hardware, and not necessarily run by the right people to be deciding which games to green light.
  - 2arrs2ells 15y ago
    Halo did get released for Mac (albeit two years after the PC release)
    - Drakim 15y ago
      That's pretty much the same as "never" being released. After that much time games lose their steam and people start talking about a sequel instead. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it still sells after two years, but the whole "brand new game that takes the market with storm" phrase has long since passed.
ConstantineXVI 15y ago
Now yes, but Apple's put them in a tricky position for the future. Thanks to the influence of iOS, Steam will be in a rather tight spot once Windows 8 rolls out (as the WinStore will be the primary source for games by default; exclusive on ARM); the presence of the App Store on OSX isn't doing them any favors either. On the flip side, if Apple wants to take the consoles head-on (a fairly safe assumption), they're going to need strong console-level games. Partnering with Valve puts them on mostly equal footing with Microsoft and Sony in terms of publisher relationships, as well as a few headliner exclusives.
- tzaman 15y ago
  you are right, the position is tricky, but I think partnering with Apple is the easy way out for Valve (and they'll probably loose their identity in the long run - probably not a bad thing, but still). They have a nice user base and if they'll adapt to WinStore coming out with proper counter-measures and marketing approaches (and maybe some new ideas), I think there's nothing they should be afraid of.
  - ConstantineXVI 15y ago
    How doe you expect Steam to "adapt" to being near-totally shut out of their primary market? Steamworks is a moot point when Win8/MountainLion comes with Xbox Live/Game Center integration as a selling point. Like it or not, Steam's days as-is are numbered and Valve needs a new platform. Could be Apple, could be their own but they have to do something if they want a chance of surviving.
    - tzaman 15y ago
      Let me answer that with a question: How was Dropbox able to "survive" when Apple has their cloud (and I'm sure Windows will feature something similar as well)? If I remember correctly, Apple wanted to buy them and they said no. The bottom line, it can be done. Others have proven it.
      - ConstantineXVI 15y ago

rmah 15y ago

Perhaps there is going to be an Apple gaming console with Valve or perhaps they are expanding Apple TV to include it?

pinaceae 15y ago

I think iOS is (again) the game changer here. The iPad is making serious inroads as a gaming platform, and not just for casual games. The recent release of Max Payne for iPad shows how fast this platform is evolving. Valve is not present on iOS, and under current app store rules cannot expand their portfolio easily there. Now, talks between Apple and Valve might just solve this conundrum. Where does a potential Apple console come into play? Why do you need one at all? Take Apple TV and Airplay. Extend the iPad game to the TV. Already possible. Only thing that sucks is controllers - if you could use a classic controller (via Bluetooth) with that iPad/aTV setup you suddenly have a pretty powerful console, and a portable one too.

ConstantineXVI 15y ago
Airplay as-is isn't really suitable for gaming. It's impressive, but even under best network conditions you still have to deal with a mild amount of lag. The ideal solution would be to run games on the Apple TV itself (relatively simple, given that the aTV is effectively a headless iPad 2); using the iPad as a glorified controller.
- mitchty 15y ago
  Yep completely agree, I've never been able to get airplay working well over wifi. The round trip time means you've about ~0.8 seconds of latency between what you see and what is on the native display.

nirvana 15y ago

I think Apple should buy Valve. Valve may not be for sale. But Valve's creativity is off the charts- they make great games. Apple, on the other hand, knows how to deliver quality software, something valve has not mastered. Steam is "great" in the sense that it was the first and its so far the most reasonable game store, but it is terrible in terms of bugs and performance[1]. Valves games are often unstable[2]. Game developers just seem to have a much higher tolerance for bugs (or an environment where the publisher makes them ship and then the teams disband so there's nobody there to fix the bugs.) At this point, I'd much rather buy a game thru the Mac App Store than thru steam. I don't think that Valve is for sale, but they'd make a great independant division within Apple. You want a wearable computer? Well, here's the best hardware company in the world. [1] Just so people know what I'm talking about. Often when launching Team Fortress Steam will throw up a dialog "Preparing to launch Team Fortress 2", that stays there from 60seconds to 7 minutes. This occurs without regard to the quality of the internet connection (have seen it both on 5megabits with high latency and 40 megabits with low latency) During this period the TF2 executable has not yet been launched, and steam is apparently doing nothing at all. Then of course TF2 takes quiet awhile to get to the point where its ready to play. [2] Not so much with games like Portal 2 which are done and not constantly revisited, but TF2 crashes regularly, sometimes there are releases that are completely unplayable on macs, and you just have to wait til the next patch. Steam itself crashes, is interminably slow (When really its mostly web pages, couldn't they have at least used webkit?) regularly wedges itself, and can't seem to download and install games to reliably. (usually it works but the rate of failure is way too high.)

prezjordan 15y ago
Regarding points 1 and 2, I find it amazing how prevalent these issues are, yet any gamer will say "doesn't happen to me." I really don't understand how one can blatantly ignore such poor performance.
- andypants 15y ago
  That's because these problems are prevalent on macs. Steam running on windows is just fine, which is the majority of steam users. Valve has been developing for windows far longer than for macs, and tf2 is the one of the first mac games that valve has developed.

stiletto 15y ago

> Until the growth and success of games on the iOS platform, Apple and gaming were just two words that did not go together This glosses over a major turning point in gaming history. Bungie debuted Halo at MACWORLD in January 2000: http://www.macobserver.com/news/00/january/000104/bungiemov.shtml http://www.macobserver.com/news/00/january/000104/bungiemov.... Six months later, Bungie was purchased by Microsoft. The most relevant consequence of that deal was that Halo, a major turning point in gaming evolution, was on Microsoft's new console: Xbox. Edit: forgot to make the obvious point. Mac was on the verge of becoming very relevant to gaming over a decade ago, and Microsoft stole that thunder for their entrance to the console races.

talmand 15y ago
My memory of that is that Apple had their shot and passed. Apple chose the wrong direction in that turning point. The amount of Halo's importance to gaming history is a debate for another time.