4 ms·

El Salvador's Bitcoin investments are in the black

6 points by RestlessMind 3y ago

layer8 3y ago
Inflation-adjusted?
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Wait for a few days :-p
  - verdverm 3y ago
    Is there new, real demand to keep prices above $30k forever? Do you think many of those who bought in the 40-60k region are looking to cash out given the opportunity?
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Gold is worth 2030$/oz right now. Do you see a new, real demand to keep its price about 2K forever? I do see because the entire humanity has agreed to value Gold. Barring a technological advance which floods the market with Gold, I don't see the value cratering anytime soon, simply because there is no other option for the entire world to trust (eg. that rules out national currencies and real estate / stocks in foreign countries, because that is subject to geopolitical winds changing like what happened to assets of Russian government and people). I see the same happening to Bitcoin (a lot of similar properties to Gold, better in some aspects and worse in some other).
dcdc123 3y ago
This sounds like a pump-and-dump :) But really...how much could they have earned if they invested it elsewhere instead? It seems silly for any country to invest in crypto. Nations should use their money to invest in themselves and build their economy, not to park it in crypto.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Every single country has national savings and reserves. Bitcoin is just one investment vehicle to park those reserves. Other options include Gold (hard to transport), USD (at the mercy of the USG and can be cancelled if USG thinks you are evil for geopolitical reasons), EUR (still at the mercy of USG). So Bitcoin can definitely be good complimentary part of the mix.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Bitcoin can definitely be good complimentary part of the mix This argument works for anything. Not even any asset, any literal thing. There is a laundry list of better reserve assets between U.S. dollars, Euros and gold, on one hand, and Bitcoin, on the other hand. Particularly for an economy as small as El Salvador’s. Bitcoin makes paying off gangs and cronies simpler for San Salvador. That’s the benefit of this boondoggle.
    - andirk 3y ago
      Except that bitcoin transactions are far more public than accounting for gold bars.
    - jksflkjl3jk3 3y ago
      > Bitcoin makes paying off gangs and cronies simpler for San Salvador. That’s the benefit of this boondoggle. Does it? Surely it's easier to hand someone bags of cash or gold bars if he doesn't want to leave a trail. Everyone in the world can see the moment he withdraws some BTC from the country's wallets.
RestlessMind 3y ago
Preemptive responses to a lot of typical HN comments: 1. "I have never seen an actual usecase for Bitcoin after 15 years" -> Here is a list I compiled, giving concrete real world examples - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 2. "Crypto is scam. Look at x and y and z". -> Crypto is a nascent field lacking clear regulations. As such, it indeed attracts scammers. Regulations should catch up and scammers should be punished. But calling entire crypto "a worthless scam" is weird. Afterall, Coinmarketcap lists 1.54T current total market cap, including legit projects like Bitcoin (816B), Ethereum (267B), USDC (24B) etc. 3. "My corner of the world is amazing and it doesn't need crypto" -> Well, congratulations and good for you! A lot of other parts of the world have shitty governance and poor monetary policies. The only options for those people were USD/EUR and Gold. Bitcoin adds a third option and has some superior qualities than USD/EUR or Gold (happy to go into details if needed). 4. "Crypto bros are insufferable" -> I couldn't agree with you more. Especially the ones who made a ton of money peddling shitcoins in the previous bullruns and think they are superior to everyone else. But they belong to the same class as "insufferable SV bros" and "insufferable wall street bros". I have learned to ignore them by now.
- sowbug 3y ago
  More use cases, including an algorithm to dynamically generate lists of them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37938975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37938975
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > a list I compiled, giving concrete real world examples Crypto has use on the fringes of civilisation, which includes both horrible people and people in horrible circumstances. That undermines any argument for its use by a state, by the definition of a nation-state at the centre of its nation. The only reason for a state to use crypto is so its leaders can engage with the fringe, i.e. criminally.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    > Crypto has use on the fringes of civilisation A broad share of population in Venezuela, Iran, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Argentina, Zimbabwe and many other countries suffering from crazy inflation can benefit from crypto. Dismissing them as "fringes of civilisation (sic)" is simply wrong.

6 points by RestlessMind 3y ago

layer8 3y ago

Inflation-adjusted?

RestlessMind 3y ago
Wait for a few days :-p
- verdverm 3y ago
  Is there new, real demand to keep prices above $30k forever? Do you think many of those who bought in the 40-60k region are looking to cash out given the opportunity?
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Gold is worth 2030$/oz right now. Do you see a new, real demand to keep its price about 2K forever? I do see because the entire humanity has agreed to value Gold. Barring a technological advance which floods the market with Gold, I don't see the value cratering anytime soon, simply because there is no other option for the entire world to trust (eg. that rules out national currencies and real estate / stocks in foreign countries, because that is subject to geopolitical winds changing like what happened to assets of Russian government and people). I see the same happening to Bitcoin (a lot of similar properties to Gold, better in some aspects and worse in some other).

dcdc123 3y ago

This sounds like a pump-and-dump :) But really...how much could they have earned if they invested it elsewhere instead? It seems silly for any country to invest in crypto. Nations should use their money to invest in themselves and build their economy, not to park it in crypto.

RestlessMind 3y ago
Every single country has national savings and reserves. Bitcoin is just one investment vehicle to park those reserves. Other options include Gold (hard to transport), USD (at the mercy of the USG and can be cancelled if USG thinks you are evil for geopolitical reasons), EUR (still at the mercy of USG). So Bitcoin can definitely be good complimentary part of the mix.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Bitcoin can definitely be good complimentary part of the mix This argument works for anything. Not even any asset, any literal thing. There is a laundry list of better reserve assets between U.S. dollars, Euros and gold, on one hand, and Bitcoin, on the other hand. Particularly for an economy as small as El Salvador’s. Bitcoin makes paying off gangs and cronies simpler for San Salvador. That’s the benefit of this boondoggle.
  - andirk 3y ago
    Except that bitcoin transactions are far more public than accounting for gold bars.
  - jksflkjl3jk3 3y ago
    > Bitcoin makes paying off gangs and cronies simpler for San Salvador. That’s the benefit of this boondoggle. Does it? Surely it's easier to hand someone bags of cash or gold bars if he doesn't want to leave a trail. Everyone in the world can see the moment he withdraws some BTC from the country's wallets.

RestlessMind 3y ago

Preemptive responses to a lot of typical HN comments: 1. "I have never seen an actual usecase for Bitcoin after 15 years" -> Here is a list I compiled, giving concrete real world examples - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 2. "Crypto is scam. Look at x and y and z". -> Crypto is a nascent field lacking clear regulations. As such, it indeed attracts scammers. Regulations should catch up and scammers should be punished. But calling entire crypto "a worthless scam" is weird. Afterall, Coinmarketcap lists 1.54T current total market cap, including legit projects like Bitcoin (816B), Ethereum (267B), USDC (24B) etc. 3. "My corner of the world is amazing and it doesn't need crypto" -> Well, congratulations and good for you! A lot of other parts of the world have shitty governance and poor monetary policies. The only options for those people were USD/EUR and Gold. Bitcoin adds a third option and has some superior qualities than USD/EUR or Gold (happy to go into details if needed). 4. "Crypto bros are insufferable" -> I couldn't agree with you more. Especially the ones who made a ton of money peddling shitcoins in the previous bullruns and think they are superior to everyone else. But they belong to the same class as "insufferable SV bros" and "insufferable wall street bros". I have learned to ignore them by now.

sowbug 3y ago
More use cases, including an algorithm to dynamically generate lists of them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37938975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37938975
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> a list I compiled, giving concrete real world examples Crypto has use on the fringes of civilisation, which includes both horrible people and people in horrible circumstances. That undermines any argument for its use by a state, by the definition of a nation-state at the centre of its nation. The only reason for a state to use crypto is so its leaders can engage with the fringe, i.e. criminally.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  > Crypto has use on the fringes of civilisation A broad share of population in Venezuela, Iran, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Argentina, Zimbabwe and many other countries suffering from crazy inflation can benefit from crypto. Dismissing them as "fringes of civilisation (sic)" is simply wrong.