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One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. Even as tablets are distributed in sch

One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper. This is not a value judgment on wether it's good or bad, just that any further study will be on subjects that spent their formative years writing on paper, they better learn to be good at it and would fail their entry into society if they couldn't do so. Any conclusion that paper works better than electronic methods comes with that asterisk to it.

bayindirh 3y ago
> One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later. Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes something deep in my mind. No, e-paper and stylus is not the same for me, either. I finish two notebooks per year.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise. Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand. Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effort methods. I love the idea of using pen and paper.... but... pen and paper are more objects to manage that can be lost and add to the clutter which is currently one of the bigger sources of stress in my life.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    While to each is their own, I don't think so. I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too. The phone is not frictionless, because at the end tap/click depth is much more when using a digital device when compared to pen and paper. I always put stalls into my mind flow, because you need to at least add some keyboard shortcuts or taps while streaming your knowledge to something digital. Paper doesn't have that kind of friction. Just dump it down. Markdown provides some good middle ground, but it's not completely intrerrupt-free either. A small A5 or 17x24cm notebook doesn't take a place in your daily backpack, neither a good, run of the mill flight-safe roller. Digital organization has its perks and uses which can't be and shouldn't be ignored when the data volume one manages passes a certain threshold, but pen and paper is irreplaceable in my mind. Because the uninterrupted workflow and the pacing it provides works as a great regulatory aid for me. It doesn't run out of battery, has much faster random access, do not tax my eyes much, and last but not the least, prevents carpal tunnel.
    - eternityforest 3y ago
      The times when I actually bother getting up off my butt and picking up a pen, I do notice a lot of productivity.. almost entirely because you can't click away to Facebook every minute, and it doesn't show you anything that reminds me of the fact I could be scrolling dumb crap. I spend a lot of time thinking about each individual letter and stroke to have any chance of legibility though, and was very slow even when I was practicing heavily as a teen(I heard GEDs were subconsciously scored based on penmanship, even though they're not supposed to, and wanted to give myself an advantage). There's also a small security issue, Google can probably read Google Keep, but people I actually know can read paper if I leave it behind, so I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of private journal, unless it was something that never left the house. It can also be lost and there's no instant sync, plus there's no reminder feature, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything critical, that's just making myself a single point of failure in my own life, even if the paper itself is reliable. The productivity gains are noticable enough that it definitely does seem like there's real value there though, despite the extra work. If I get stuck on a problem, I pull out my Boogie Board(Not quite paper but great for throwaway notes). I also like to use my A5 binder notebook in meetings, especially if I'm new to a group, or it's a casual discussion that's not highly technical, almost as part of my wardrobe. It gives transparency that I'm actually paying attention, not scrolling Hacker News, as opposed to a screen only I can see, and it doesn't break immersion if we're talking about a project that doesn't involve tech, like building something that's meant to feel old fashioned.
bee_rider 3y ago
I think “solely on electronic devices” will never happen. But, even ~10 years ago I had friends in college who did all of their note taking on laptops. I sure there are kids who do the same nowadays, right?
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  I assume 20 years ago "desk work without ever touching paper" would also have fallen into the "will never happen" bucket, but here we are. Hand writing will always be there somewhere, but paper going away doesn't feel unconceivable to me. There is a strong counter reaction to tablets ("screens") and it's still costly (looking at the 12"9 ipad...), heavy and and cumbersome, so small kids today who do most of their writing on digital device would be a crazy small minority.
gnicholas 3y ago
> Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper. My kid takes tests on the computer. And when I was in law school almost 20 years ago, students mostly took notes on computers, and tests were computerized as well. I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand.
- erikerikson 3y ago
  The general hypothesis is that increases in the count of modalities used and intensity of use within each modality for a task is, by definition, an increased engagement, more completely triggering the adaptive mechanisms such as memory and providing a more pervasive context into which the learning can be woven.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  > I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand. I had the same experience while in college, pseudo code, simulating algorithms or rough design schemas were easier done on paper. Fast forward today, paper brings too much friction in the process, especially as I lost a ton of wtiting dexterity vs computer muscle memory, and figjam or diagram drawing tools work better. My anecdotal case comes from being bad at paper in the first place, but I wouldn't be surprised to see kids develop in ways that adapt to the primary tools they are given, and be good on digital screens if that's what they need for the rest of their scholar life.
ajhurliman 3y ago
Does it matter? I know you won’t prove “physical note taking is objectively better in every scenario” but you can still answer the question “which is better for humans who live and work today”.

bayindirh 3y ago

> One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices. I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later. Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes something deep in my mind. No, e-paper and stylus is not the same for me, either. I finish two notebooks per year.

eternityforest 3y ago
I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise. Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand. Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effort methods. I love the idea of using pen and paper.... but... pen and paper are more objects to manage that can be lost and add to the clutter which is currently one of the bigger sources of stress in my life.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  While to each is their own, I don't think so. I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too. The phone is not frictionless, because at the end tap/click depth is much more when using a digital device when compared to pen and paper. I always put stalls into my mind flow, because you need to at least add some keyboard shortcuts or taps while streaming your knowledge to something digital. Paper doesn't have that kind of friction. Just dump it down. Markdown provides some good middle ground, but it's not completely intrerrupt-free either. A small A5 or 17x24cm notebook doesn't take a place in your daily backpack, neither a good, run of the mill flight-safe roller. Digital organization has its perks and uses which can't be and shouldn't be ignored when the data volume one manages passes a certain threshold, but pen and paper is irreplaceable in my mind. Because the uninterrupted workflow and the pacing it provides works as a great regulatory aid for me. It doesn't run out of battery, has much faster random access, do not tax my eyes much, and last but not the least, prevents carpal tunnel.
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    The times when I actually bother getting up off my butt and picking up a pen, I do notice a lot of productivity.. almost entirely because you can't click away to Facebook every minute, and it doesn't show you anything that reminds me of the fact I could be scrolling dumb crap. I spend a lot of time thinking about each individual letter and stroke to have any chance of legibility though, and was very slow even when I was practicing heavily as a teen(I heard GEDs were subconsciously scored based on penmanship, even though they're not supposed to, and wanted to give myself an advantage). There's also a small security issue, Google can probably read Google Keep, but people I actually know can read paper if I leave it behind, so I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of private journal, unless it was something that never left the house. It can also be lost and there's no instant sync, plus there's no reminder feature, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything critical, that's just making myself a single point of failure in my own life, even if the paper itself is reliable. The productivity gains are noticable enough that it definitely does seem like there's real value there though, despite the extra work. If I get stuck on a problem, I pull out my Boogie Board(Not quite paper but great for throwaway notes). I also like to use my A5 binder notebook in meetings, especially if I'm new to a group, or it's a casual discussion that's not highly technical, almost as part of my wardrobe. It gives transparency that I'm actually paying attention, not scrolling Hacker News, as opposed to a screen only I can see, and it doesn't break immersion if we're talking about a project that doesn't involve tech, like building something that's meant to feel old fashioned.

bee_rider 3y ago

I think “solely on electronic devices” will never happen. But, even ~10 years ago I had friends in college who did all of their note taking on laptops. I sure there are kids who do the same nowadays, right?

makeitdouble 3y ago
I assume 20 years ago "desk work without ever touching paper" would also have fallen into the "will never happen" bucket, but here we are. Hand writing will always be there somewhere, but paper going away doesn't feel unconceivable to me. There is a strong counter reaction to tablets ("screens") and it's still costly (looking at the 12"9 ipad...), heavy and and cumbersome, so small kids today who do most of their writing on digital device would be a crazy small minority.

gnicholas 3y ago

> Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper. My kid takes tests on the computer. And when I was in law school almost 20 years ago, students mostly took notes on computers, and tests were computerized as well. I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand.

erikerikson 3y ago
The general hypothesis is that increases in the count of modalities used and intensity of use within each modality for a task is, by definition, an increased engagement, more completely triggering the adaptive mechanisms such as memory and providing a more pervasive context into which the learning can be woven.
makeitdouble 3y ago
> I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand. I had the same experience while in college, pseudo code, simulating algorithms or rough design schemas were easier done on paper. Fast forward today, paper brings too much friction in the process, especially as I lost a ton of wtiting dexterity vs computer muscle memory, and figjam or diagram drawing tools work better. My anecdotal case comes from being bad at paper in the first place, but I wouldn't be surprised to see kids develop in ways that adapt to the primary tools they are given, and be good on digital screens if that's what they need for the rest of their scholar life.

ajhurliman 3y ago

Does it matter? I know you won’t prove “physical note taking is objectively better in every scenario” but you can still answer the question “which is better for humans who live and work today”.