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This is vastly different for native Germans and immigrant Germans. There are even some papers about how having a Turkish name immediately cuts your chances of g

This is vastly different for native Germans and immigrant Germans. There are even some papers about how having a Turkish name immediately cuts your chances of getting a response to your job application in half. German job applications also require a photo on the application. For a lot of immigrant Germans leaving Germany is very much a goal, since upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US. So for a lot of "German Germans" the answer is no, but for the rest it very much is something people aspire to. If you look at the statistics I believe outward migration is a little under inward migration, but I'd wager that there are a lot more people with higher ed moving out than are moving in. I complain about the US a lot, but for me both the US and the UK were vastly better for my mental health and career than Germany was, even despite the average standard of living in Europe being much higher.

__jonas 3y ago
> German job applications also require a photo on the application. I don't disagree with the rest of your comment but this is not true. Technically an employer cannot legally require you to attach a picture to your application or judge you any differently if you do not attach one, since the AGG passed in 2006 – although I don't doubt that it plays out different in practice sometimes. I remember even being told in Highschool though that we shouldn't attach a picture to job applications, since it's generally not done anymore to avoid discrimination.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  Yes technically, and how could you possibly enforce that? There is no rule forbidding it, so by default most employers still require it in their applications, but if they don't and you don't supply it, they will be suspicious. There is no way around that problem unless that practice is explicitly banned. Instead, you just get this weird workaround, that doesn't technically ban it, but makes it completely unenforceable, giving the German bureaucratic system an excuse that they addressed the issue without ever having to address it.
- dranudin 3y ago
  I got all of my developer jobs in Germany without a photo.
ath92 3y ago
> upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US This appears to be untrue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Germany ranks 11th on social mobility, while the us ranks 27th.
- candiodari 3y ago
  I'm not sure why this would be called "social mobility index": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#Methodology_summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#M... I would argue this measures governments services available to the poorest for free + to some extent how successful those government services are in fixing social issues (like teen pregnancy, "checked out" NEET youngsters, ...) This Doesn't seem to me to at all measure how likely you are to get ahead if you try hard enough.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    You can't get ahead if you get dragged down the bottom all the time, though. However, the chance of outsized success in the US if you make it, is larger though. I guess because of access to a larger market, but probably cultural factors, too.
ltac 3y ago
Agreed. It’s much easier to assimilate than in Germany I’d say. The ceiling or bias simply doesn’t exist in US whereas perhaps due to historical reasons it exists in Germany. From experience, Turkish are treated as “mainstream” in US than Germany.

__jonas 3y ago

> German job applications also require a photo on the application. I don't disagree with the rest of your comment but this is not true. Technically an employer cannot legally require you to attach a picture to your application or judge you any differently if you do not attach one, since the AGG passed in 2006 – although I don't doubt that it plays out different in practice sometimes. I remember even being told in Highschool though that we shouldn't attach a picture to job applications, since it's generally not done anymore to avoid discrimination.

rjzzleep 3y ago
Yes technically, and how could you possibly enforce that? There is no rule forbidding it, so by default most employers still require it in their applications, but if they don't and you don't supply it, they will be suspicious. There is no way around that problem unless that practice is explicitly banned. Instead, you just get this weird workaround, that doesn't technically ban it, but makes it completely unenforceable, giving the German bureaucratic system an excuse that they addressed the issue without ever having to address it.
dranudin 3y ago
I got all of my developer jobs in Germany without a photo.

ath92 3y ago

> upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US This appears to be untrue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Germany ranks 11th on social mobility, while the us ranks 27th.

candiodari 3y ago
I'm not sure why this would be called "social mobility index": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#Methodology_summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#M... I would argue this measures governments services available to the poorest for free + to some extent how successful those government services are in fixing social issues (like teen pregnancy, "checked out" NEET youngsters, ...) This Doesn't seem to me to at all measure how likely you are to get ahead if you try hard enough.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  You can't get ahead if you get dragged down the bottom all the time, though. However, the chance of outsized success in the US if you make it, is larger though. I guess because of access to a larger market, but probably cultural factors, too.

ltac 3y ago

Agreed. It’s much easier to assimilate than in Germany I’d say. The ceiling or bias simply doesn’t exist in US whereas perhaps due to historical reasons it exists in Germany. From experience, Turkish are treated as “mainstream” in US than Germany.