3 ms·

This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third

This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki. I imagine it would significantly outcompete both hand-written notes and digital tablet notes. A bit like the famous Steve Jobs example comparing a human, a condor, and a human with a bicycle. The condor (hand-writing) may beat the human (tablet), but a human with a bicycle (SRS system) outcompetes both.

ezequiel-garzon 3y ago
What's an SRS system?
- fermiNitambh 3y ago
  Spaced Repetition Software.
- suriyaG 3y ago
  I think it is Space Repetition Software/System
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Software that prompts you with information on some time interval that allows for embedding it deeper in your memory. I think the key was it would prompt you with the information, just as your short term memory would be about to forget it, and thus re-inforce it. So some information X you want to remember. It would prompt you with it at 5 minutes, then 20, then an hour, then 5 hours. I forget the durations, but it was based in some studies on time before short term memory fades.
falling_myshkin 3y ago
I don't understand your simile. The limitations of a bicycle are infrastructure: bicycles can go a lot of places very efficiently, but rugged mountain terrain without trails (precisely the place condors thrive) would be difficult to traverse. (this is totally off topic but now i am curious about the energy efficiency of condor flight vs bicycle travel in ideal conditions) i find SRS very useful. but i personally think it is not well suited to reference information. i'm skeptical of putting all my appointments in SRS for example (maybe birthdays would be worth it). or say I had collected a bunch of papers related to a topic I was very interested in. I don't necessarily think I'd want to memorize the list of them via SRS, but having the titles written somewhere for reference would be great. I think the point of this paper is that if that 'somewhere' is an SRS card, it is almost completely devoid of context (other than 'studying flashcards on computer' context), but if that somewhere is a notebook that contains lists of papers related to all the topics i'm interested in, it's much easier to find. (though computers are good at searching fast)
- keiferski 3y ago
  It was just an example used by Steve Jobs to show how computers could enhance human capabilities. Also, using a SRS in conjunction with a memory palace can solve a lot of the reference issues you’re describing.
  - falling_myshkin 3y ago
    this combo technique sounds useful, is it something like reviewing memory palaces with spaced repetition, instead of reviewing standalone information?
    - keiferski 3y ago
      Something like that, yeah. The idea being that you create a memory palace or physical space, and then memorize a map or route through it via spaced repetition. Memory palaces are often recommended for reference-type information, so I think this would work well. There are a number of discussions on Art of Memory talking about this: https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniques-combined/28538 https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniqu... https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-palace/33492 https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-pal...
tgv 3y ago
One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories. Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.
- keiferski 3y ago
  My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of magnitude better. At least that’s what I think; and so I wish the study had included this.
  - Probiotic6081 3y ago
    > My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taking duration after reading a dialogue. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but that systematic spaced repetition will lead to better information retrieval is kind of obvious and has a lot of literature to support it, but how is it relevant to this study?
    - keiferski 3y ago
      Because the original link submission title was more about memory and writing vs. typing. And so I was commenting on the topic of memory as a whole. Judging by the other comments, most people had the same interpretation.
AngaraliTurk 3y ago
Just a very small nitpick, but "system" is redundant when you say SRS, as it would be like saying Spaced Repetition System system.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- keiferski 3y ago
  SRS = spaced repetition software.
  - AngaraliTurk 3y ago
    Spaced repetition software system? That's not the usual meaning of SRS, but good to know some people use it like that.
  - kolinko 3y ago
    A shoutout to SuperMemo here - one of the oldest SRS out there. Their first version was on Amiga, if I remember correctly, and the newest ones support iOS, use LLMs and all the other tech :)
    - keiferski 3y ago
      I’ve never used Supermemo (still windows-only I think) but the data on their blog is really awesome. The founder basically pioneered the idea of SRS.
    - Tomte 3y ago
      iOS? No, certainly not. The recently released version just did the jump from Internet Explorer to Edge support. You probably mean the confusingly identically named SuperMemo on supermemo.com (not .guru), that is indeed a spaced-repetition software, but is not the venerable and famous real SuperMemo with a gazillion of features and research behind it. Just a simplistic knockoff. Strangely by the same author.
  - ClimaxGravely 3y ago
Probiotic6081 3y ago
>This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki Then you should go tell the journal editors that this study is incomplete and didn't cover the type of memory you consider more significant, hopefully they will retract the paper

ezequiel-garzon 3y ago

What's an SRS system?

fermiNitambh 3y ago
Spaced Repetition Software.
suriyaG 3y ago
I think it is Space Repetition Software/System
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Software that prompts you with information on some time interval that allows for embedding it deeper in your memory. I think the key was it would prompt you with the information, just as your short term memory would be about to forget it, and thus re-inforce it. So some information X you want to remember. It would prompt you with it at 5 minutes, then 20, then an hour, then 5 hours. I forget the durations, but it was based in some studies on time before short term memory fades.

falling_myshkin 3y ago

I don't understand your simile. The limitations of a bicycle are infrastructure: bicycles can go a lot of places very efficiently, but rugged mountain terrain without trails (precisely the place condors thrive) would be difficult to traverse. (this is totally off topic but now i am curious about the energy efficiency of condor flight vs bicycle travel in ideal conditions) i find SRS very useful. but i personally think it is not well suited to reference information. i'm skeptical of putting all my appointments in SRS for example (maybe birthdays would be worth it). or say I had collected a bunch of papers related to a topic I was very interested in. I don't necessarily think I'd want to memorize the list of them via SRS, but having the titles written somewhere for reference would be great. I think the point of this paper is that if that 'somewhere' is an SRS card, it is almost completely devoid of context (other than 'studying flashcards on computer' context), but if that somewhere is a notebook that contains lists of papers related to all the topics i'm interested in, it's much easier to find. (though computers are good at searching fast)

keiferski 3y ago
It was just an example used by Steve Jobs to show how computers could enhance human capabilities. Also, using a SRS in conjunction with a memory palace can solve a lot of the reference issues you’re describing.
- falling_myshkin 3y ago
  this combo technique sounds useful, is it something like reviewing memory palaces with spaced repetition, instead of reviewing standalone information?
  - keiferski 3y ago
    Something like that, yeah. The idea being that you create a memory palace or physical space, and then memorize a map or route through it via spaced repetition. Memory palaces are often recommended for reference-type information, so I think this would work well. There are a number of discussions on Art of Memory talking about this: https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniques-combined/28538 https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniqu... https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-palace/33492 https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-pal...

tgv 3y ago

One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories. Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.

keiferski 3y ago
My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of magnitude better. At least that’s what I think; and so I wish the study had included this.
- Probiotic6081 3y ago
  > My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone. The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taking duration after reading a dialogue. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but that systematic spaced repetition will lead to better information retrieval is kind of obvious and has a lot of literature to support it, but how is it relevant to this study?
  - keiferski 3y ago
    Because the original link submission title was more about memory and writing vs. typing. And so I was commenting on the topic of memory as a whole. Judging by the other comments, most people had the same interpretation.

AngaraliTurk 3y ago

Just a very small nitpick, but "system" is redundant when you say SRS, as it would be like saying Spaced Repetition System system.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
keiferski 3y ago
SRS = spaced repetition software.
- AngaraliTurk 3y ago
  Spaced repetition software system? That's not the usual meaning of SRS, but good to know some people use it like that.
- kolinko 3y ago
  A shoutout to SuperMemo here - one of the oldest SRS out there. Their first version was on Amiga, if I remember correctly, and the newest ones support iOS, use LLMs and all the other tech :)
  - keiferski 3y ago
    I’ve never used Supermemo (still windows-only I think) but the data on their blog is really awesome. The founder basically pioneered the idea of SRS.
  - Tomte 3y ago
    iOS? No, certainly not. The recently released version just did the jump from Internet Explorer to Edge support. You probably mean the confusingly identically named SuperMemo on supermemo.com (not .guru), that is indeed a spaced-repetition software, but is not the venerable and famous real SuperMemo with a gazillion of features and research behind it. Just a simplistic knockoff. Strangely by the same author.
- ClimaxGravely 3y ago

Probiotic6081 3y ago

>This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki Then you should go tell the journal editors that this study is incomplete and didn't cover the type of memory you consider more significant, hopefully they will retract the paper