7 ms·

It takes some degree of ignorance to claim that Java can be used in scenarios which require proper structs and object interior pointers. JNI is an abomination

It takes some degree of ignorance to claim that Java can be used in scenarios which require proper structs and object interior pointers. JNI is an abomination and a cautionary tale for everyone implementing interop facilities into their language.

pjmlp 3y ago
My ignorance takes me to places you can only wonder about. https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc https://www.aicas.com/wp/products-services/jamaicavm/ https://www.aicas.com/wp/products-services/jamaicavm/ https://www.microej.com/ https://www.microej.com/ And to 80% market share in mobile OS market, full of JNI all over the place.
- neonsunset 3y ago
  That's a rather damning prospect, that the mobile OS market has. Luckily, it's not all Android and I will be happily calling Swift directly out of .NET with upcoming interop changes and never have to touch this embarrassment of an API again that is JNI.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    At which point better use Swift, a language designed as C, C++ and Objective-C replacement from the ground up.
    - neonsunset 3y ago
      Not until its performance improves (why yes, I too was surprised to find it being slower than C# in many situations).
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        As if calling into iOS APIs, some of which written in Swift, via an additional layer would be faster. By the way, MAUI folks had to rewrite plenty of stuff in Java/Kotlin and Swift, to improve MAUI performance.
        neonsunset 3y ago
        The reason why parts of the code had to be rewritten in Java was to work around inherent inadequacy of JNI. This is a sad reality all non-JVM languages have to deal with when targeting Android.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        You missed the "and Swift".
        neonsunset 3y ago
        If you're mentioning it, I would expect you to know that motivation behind writing Swift helpers was entirely different. Not that it matters in the long run because there will be even better way to do it. If you don't, then the comment is speculative, pointless and driven by bias.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Regardless, it was done, turns out C# can't do everything on a foreign platform. The better way is to write Swift, or eventually Objective-C, when iOS is anyway the only OS being targeted, instead of adding complexity layers, just because one fancies C#.
        Alupis 3y ago
        If one were to look under the hood of C#/CLR/dotnet and see just how it does native access, it would be as much of an "abomination" as JNI. The only difference is the tooling provided to C# users is higher level than JNI. However, unlike the dotnet world, the JVM ecosystem provides numerous ways to do native access, if raw JNI isn't your thing. JNA has been around forever, then there's JNR as well, numerous less-used libraries, and finally Project Panama[1]. Pick the one you like... we get choices. The dotnet people usually only ever get one option, and believe (falsely) that it's the greatest. A lot like Stockholm Syndrome... [1] https://openjdk.org/projects/panama/ https://openjdk.org/projects/panama/

pjmlp 3y ago

My ignorance takes me to places you can only wonder about. https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc https://www.aicas.com/wp/products-services/jamaicavm/ https://www.aicas.com/wp/products-services/jamaicavm/ https://www.microej.com/ https://www.microej.com/ And to 80% market share in mobile OS market, full of JNI all over the place.

neonsunset 3y ago
That's a rather damning prospect, that the mobile OS market has. Luckily, it's not all Android and I will be happily calling Swift directly out of .NET with upcoming interop changes and never have to touch this embarrassment of an API again that is JNI.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  At which point better use Swift, a language designed as C, C++ and Objective-C replacement from the ground up.
  - neonsunset 3y ago
    Not until its performance improves (why yes, I too was surprised to find it being slower than C# in many situations).
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      As if calling into iOS APIs, some of which written in Swift, via an additional layer would be faster. By the way, MAUI folks had to rewrite plenty of stuff in Java/Kotlin and Swift, to improve MAUI performance.
      - neonsunset 3y ago
        The reason why parts of the code had to be rewritten in Java was to work around inherent inadequacy of JNI. This is a sad reality all non-JVM languages have to deal with when targeting Android.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        You missed the "and Swift".
        neonsunset 3y ago
        If you're mentioning it, I would expect you to know that motivation behind writing Swift helpers was entirely different. Not that it matters in the long run because there will be even better way to do it. If you don't, then the comment is speculative, pointless and driven by bias.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Regardless, it was done, turns out C# can't do everything on a foreign platform. The better way is to write Swift, or eventually Objective-C, when iOS is anyway the only OS being targeted, instead of adding complexity layers, just because one fancies C#.
        Alupis 3y ago
        If one were to look under the hood of C#/CLR/dotnet and see just how it does native access, it would be as much of an "abomination" as JNI. The only difference is the tooling provided to C# users is higher level than JNI. However, unlike the dotnet world, the JVM ecosystem provides numerous ways to do native access, if raw JNI isn't your thing. JNA has been around forever, then there's JNR as well, numerous less-used libraries, and finally Project Panama[1]. Pick the one you like... we get choices. The dotnet people usually only ever get one option, and believe (falsely) that it's the greatest. A lot like Stockholm Syndrome... [1] https://openjdk.org/projects/panama/ https://openjdk.org/projects/panama/