3 ms·

Why?

by drbaba 3y ago

Why?

goku12 3y ago
Not the parent, and I don't hate Ruby or any other language. But one practical problem I have with installable scripts in interpreted languages like Ruby gems, Python/Pipx apps and NPM global scripts is that each one is an isolated silo requiring by an entire runtime. Installing the runtime isn't a big issue as it can be done with the system package manager. But each runtime requires a specific environment (like Python's site-packages) with specific settings that don't mix well with that of other language runtimes. Each one also has a separate package manager that has to be invoked for updates. In my case, there are a dozen package managers - too many to set up and remember. I use a script to update each one in a sequence. Compiled programs aren't that much problematic. They usually integrate well with system libraries and can be installed unobtrusively into the system (like /usr/local/bin or /opt). Or they can be packaged easily for the system package manager. Dependency issues are solved at compile time and forgotten for the most part. Artifact reuse is also better - even between languages like C++ and Rust. The only trouble I had with packaging compiled programs (for Gentoo) is when the compiled program also had JS modules in it. That was precisely due to having to deal with NPM inside a build sandbox.
- drbaba 3y ago
  This is a valid point. I’m a big fan of Python the language myself, but packaging and distribution is quite the mess. I honestly wish we at least got first-class support for adding say “import numpy-1.31” to the code, such that you could safely install multiple versions of a package in parallel in the global PYTHONPATH without issues.
- throwme_123 3y ago
  Thanks for articulating this much better than I did. I loved RoR when playing with it back when it was popular but I was just learning to program + using a computer. Fast-forward a few years, my last Ruby experience was struggling with dependencies for Jekyll. Horror story indeed.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  > they can be packaged easily for the system package manager. Dependency issues are solved at compile time and forgotten for the most part Clearly you've never run across a package install or update that pulled in ~400 other dependencies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38511590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38511590 You're right about runtimes being a pain. I recall that time my Ruby install got hosed by something, I don't know what, that broke Jekyll. I never figured out what happened, and after spending a lot of a time trying to fix it, I gave up, installed Hugo, converted my sites, and never looked back.

Why?

by drbaba 3y ago

Why?

Not the parent, and I don't hate Ruby or any other language. But one practical problem I have with installable scripts in interpreted languages like Ruby gems, Python/Pipx apps and NPM global scripts is that each one is an isolated silo requiring by an entire runtime. Installing the runtime isn't a big issue as it can be done with the system package manager. But each runtime requires a specific environment (like Python's site-packages) with specific settings that don't mix well with that of other language runtimes. Each one also has a separate package manager that has to be invoked for updates. In my case, there are a dozen package managers - too many to set up and remember. I use a script to update each one in a sequence. Compiled programs aren't that much problematic. They usually integrate well with system libraries and can be installed unobtrusively into the system (like /usr/local/bin or /opt). Or they can be packaged easily for the system package manager. Dependency issues are solved at compile time and forgotten for the most part. Artifact reuse is also better - even between languages like C++ and Rust. The only trouble I had with packaging compiled programs (for Gentoo) is when the compiled program also had JS modules in it. That was precisely due to having to deal with NPM inside a build sandbox.

drbaba 3y ago
This is a valid point. I’m a big fan of Python the language myself, but packaging and distribution is quite the mess. I honestly wish we at least got first-class support for adding say “import numpy-1.31” to the code, such that you could safely install multiple versions of a package in parallel in the global PYTHONPATH without issues.
throwme_123 3y ago
Thanks for articulating this much better than I did. I loved RoR when playing with it back when it was popular but I was just learning to program + using a computer. Fast-forward a few years, my last Ruby experience was struggling with dependencies for Jekyll. Horror story indeed.
cratermoon 3y ago
> they can be packaged easily for the system package manager. Dependency issues are solved at compile time and forgotten for the most part Clearly you've never run across a package install or update that pulled in ~400 other dependencies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38511590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38511590 You're right about runtimes being a pain. I recall that time my Ruby install got hosed by something, I don't know what, that broke Jekyll. I never figured out what happened, and after spending a lot of a time trying to fix it, I gave up, installed Hugo, converted my sites, and never looked back.