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Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. Everyone prefers the Germany social security/insurance/pension

Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. Everyone prefers the Germany social security/insurance/pension system (even if it’s quite mediocre compared to The Netherlands and Scandinavia).

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. And yet GP did, and others more like him. FWIW I had two German bosses who emigrated to the US(one to California, one to Atlanta), so the US is clearly an attractive place for them and they say they loved it there just like GP. The majority of Germans talking about how much they hate the US, have never lived there but they hate it nevertheless because it's a populat thing to hate in Germany, and also they don't work in tech, or need to rely on the welfare state, or are already from well off families where the lower local salaries make no difference. The ones working in tech who don't rely on the welfare state, are quite open to the idea of moving there for the right money. Sure, if GP was one of those Germans from a mid-upper class background with a nice inherited Bavarian house (unaffordable at any German working wage) then immigrating to the US makes no sense as he already would have enough prosperity at home, but if you have no wealth and want to build it, then working in the US tech sector is much better than working in Germany. So no, a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US", as that highly depends on their social/wealth class and career. Edit: seems I upset the apple cart with my comment. Sorry, next time I'm gonna parrot the HN accepted "Germany-Good, US-Bad" party line if that pleases the crowd.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US" Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I never said Germans are relying on welfare, I said the Germans WHO rely on welfare would not consider moving to the US for obvious reasons. Nor those who are already financially stable, again for obvious reasons. >I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary. Good to know. Tell us more about yourself.
- sakjur 3y ago
  Maybe it’s not US-bad Germany-good or Germany-bad US-good, and more like home-good, away-scary or home-bad, away-alluring. Or maybe even home-good, adventure-exciting. We can compare salaries, schools, freedoms, houses, and so forth til the end of time, but there’s always an intangible personal factor weighing down the scales to some extent. I think that’s what gets people to actually uproot and move, no matter which direction they go.
  - SirLanzelot 3y ago
    Exactly. Having just made an international move for a job and going through the research and decision making process, I found it really boils down to the intangible personal factor that you speak of. What does the individual value and what are they seeking? It's impossible to assign one answer as to which place is best.
- atraac 3y ago
  I think you got downvoted because you answer like you're being attacked, when someone just stated their opinion/views. He mentioned this is an opinion of people HE knows. This is also an opinion of most people I know(and I work with a lot of people from central/western EU). People have their opinions and that's ok, you might know people with different opinions and that's also ok, noone is attacking you or US. I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US, unless me and my SO had guaranteed high-paying jobs. I currently make around 85k USD/y(base) and even if I could double that easily just by moving there, my living standard would go down dramatically as my current salary already puts me in top 5% in my country. I absolutely love how big US is, amazing national parks, the access to nature and general diversity of people, foods and cultures, but lack of public healthcare and free access to guns would be an absolute no no for me unless I was paid obscene amounts of money for those 'inconveniences'.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US [...] I currently make around 85k USD/y(base) Well that's why, because you already make very good money here. But the vast majority of Poles, or even other Europeans in even more expensive countries, don't make anywhere near that money, while having much more expensive housing than Poland. With that kind of money you're living the good life here already so there's no reason to move to the US even for 2x-5x the money as you can already afford everything you could ever need in Poland on your current salary. You're pretty much in a bubble and are the exception, not the rule. Like I said before, people with good material situation in Europe have almost no reason to move to the US. But what about those on less fortunate salaries with no wealth to their name, who would get a shot in the US for a >10x pay bump? A childhood friend's dad moved to work in construction in the US(also from eastern Europe), and with the money from working 15 years there he's set for life in Europe, already retired early and in a McMansion back home. There's no way he could have achieved that financial independence by staying in his eastern European country. Not everyone in Europe has the potential to earn 85k/year here, while in the US it's much much easier. For many jobs, the EU-US discrepancy in pay is insane, and not just in SW dev.
    - 3y ago
pjerem 3y ago
OP’s story is from 2014-2015. I’m not German but French, however I do feel that this "Silicon Valley dream" upon developers was still existing in this era. It was at that time that we started to have startups in Europe who tried to follow the SV culture. GAFAMs were still seen as cool enough to envy a well paid job at them. A lot of SV startups weren’t openly privacy hostile (or maybe the issue wasn’t took seriously enough). But I felt that this "dream" was only upon developers at that time and it stoped sometimes after. In fact, in 2015, while on a trip to SF, I ate with a former French coworker who decided to live the dream and he was already saying to me that he wanted to come back in Europe because he couldn’t stand the ambiant culture anymore. It wasn’t the job, he loved it, performed well, was well paid. It wasn’t even the people, he made some friends there, felt like people were genuinely nice. But it was more the delusion about the SV-Life and the mismatch in cultural values and in the global society lifestyle in which he felt you were nothing to others / to the society without money. Now I do feel like that this sentiment about the US is now more mainstream in Europe even amongst those who never came in USA. ps : I urge you to not read any criticism in my comment, I’m describing a general sentiment from the other side of an ocean, probably with a big bias. But I do feel this sentiment is pretty recent and it’s probable that Trump made it way worse.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  GP moved to Connecticut though. There's probably less "SV-culture" there.
  - ccozan 3y ago
    CT is also quite close to european culture ( or, as closest possible in US ).
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Trump made me doubt the stability of the US as a system. I don't daydream much of moving to the US anymore.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. And yet GP did, and others more like him. FWIW I had two German bosses who emigrated to the US(one to California, one to Atlanta), so the US is clearly an attractive place for them and they say they loved it there just like GP. The majority of Germans talking about how much they hate the US, have never lived there but they hate it nevertheless because it's a populat thing to hate in Germany, and also they don't work in tech, or need to rely on the welfare state, or are already from well off families where the lower local salaries make no difference. The ones working in tech who don't rely on the welfare state, are quite open to the idea of moving there for the right money. Sure, if GP was one of those Germans from a mid-upper class background with a nice inherited Bavarian house (unaffordable at any German working wage) then immigrating to the US makes no sense as he already would have enough prosperity at home, but if you have no wealth and want to build it, then working in the US tech sector is much better than working in Germany. So no, a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US", as that highly depends on their social/wealth class and career. Edit: seems I upset the apple cart with my comment. Sorry, next time I'm gonna parrot the HN accepted "Germany-Good, US-Bad" party line if that pleases the crowd.

alpaca128 3y ago
> a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US" Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I never said Germans are relying on welfare, I said the Germans WHO rely on welfare would not consider moving to the US for obvious reasons. Nor those who are already financially stable, again for obvious reasons. >I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary. Good to know. Tell us more about yourself.
sakjur 3y ago
Maybe it’s not US-bad Germany-good or Germany-bad US-good, and more like home-good, away-scary or home-bad, away-alluring. Or maybe even home-good, adventure-exciting. We can compare salaries, schools, freedoms, houses, and so forth til the end of time, but there’s always an intangible personal factor weighing down the scales to some extent. I think that’s what gets people to actually uproot and move, no matter which direction they go.
- SirLanzelot 3y ago
  Exactly. Having just made an international move for a job and going through the research and decision making process, I found it really boils down to the intangible personal factor that you speak of. What does the individual value and what are they seeking? It's impossible to assign one answer as to which place is best.
atraac 3y ago
I think you got downvoted because you answer like you're being attacked, when someone just stated their opinion/views. He mentioned this is an opinion of people HE knows. This is also an opinion of most people I know(and I work with a lot of people from central/western EU). People have their opinions and that's ok, you might know people with different opinions and that's also ok, noone is attacking you or US. I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US, unless me and my SO had guaranteed high-paying jobs. I currently make around 85k USD/y(base) and even if I could double that easily just by moving there, my living standard would go down dramatically as my current salary already puts me in top 5% in my country. I absolutely love how big US is, amazing national parks, the access to nature and general diversity of people, foods and cultures, but lack of public healthcare and free access to guns would be an absolute no no for me unless I was paid obscene amounts of money for those 'inconveniences'.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US [...] I currently make around 85k USD/y(base) Well that's why, because you already make very good money here. But the vast majority of Poles, or even other Europeans in even more expensive countries, don't make anywhere near that money, while having much more expensive housing than Poland. With that kind of money you're living the good life here already so there's no reason to move to the US even for 2x-5x the money as you can already afford everything you could ever need in Poland on your current salary. You're pretty much in a bubble and are the exception, not the rule. Like I said before, people with good material situation in Europe have almost no reason to move to the US. But what about those on less fortunate salaries with no wealth to their name, who would get a shot in the US for a >10x pay bump? A childhood friend's dad moved to work in construction in the US(also from eastern Europe), and with the money from working 15 years there he's set for life in Europe, already retired early and in a McMansion back home. There's no way he could have achieved that financial independence by staying in his eastern European country. Not everyone in Europe has the potential to earn 85k/year here, while in the US it's much much easier. For many jobs, the EU-US discrepancy in pay is insane, and not just in SW dev.
  - 3y ago

pjerem 3y ago

OP’s story is from 2014-2015. I’m not German but French, however I do feel that this "Silicon Valley dream" upon developers was still existing in this era. It was at that time that we started to have startups in Europe who tried to follow the SV culture. GAFAMs were still seen as cool enough to envy a well paid job at them. A lot of SV startups weren’t openly privacy hostile (or maybe the issue wasn’t took seriously enough). But I felt that this "dream" was only upon developers at that time and it stoped sometimes after. In fact, in 2015, while on a trip to SF, I ate with a former French coworker who decided to live the dream and he was already saying to me that he wanted to come back in Europe because he couldn’t stand the ambiant culture anymore. It wasn’t the job, he loved it, performed well, was well paid. It wasn’t even the people, he made some friends there, felt like people were genuinely nice. But it was more the delusion about the SV-Life and the mismatch in cultural values and in the global society lifestyle in which he felt you were nothing to others / to the society without money. Now I do feel like that this sentiment about the US is now more mainstream in Europe even amongst those who never came in USA. ps : I urge you to not read any criticism in my comment, I’m describing a general sentiment from the other side of an ocean, probably with a big bias. But I do feel this sentiment is pretty recent and it’s probable that Trump made it way worse.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
GP moved to Connecticut though. There's probably less "SV-culture" there.
- ccozan 3y ago
  CT is also quite close to european culture ( or, as closest possible in US ).
actionfromafar 3y ago
Trump made me doubt the stability of the US as a system. I don't daydream much of moving to the US anymore.