4 ms·

> because here I was, reading this story, not generalizing about what gender does what, just seeing a character with flaws, and then your comment comes along an

> because here I was, reading this story, not generalizing about what gender does what, just seeing a character with flaws, and then your comment comes along and makes it not just about the gender of the character, but the gender of the author as well Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you? > I wish I could go back and unread it, then I wouldn't have spent ten minutes writing this inelegant rebuttal. You seem to be upset that someone had a different perspective. You might want to learn some emotional control techniques if you are this upset over an observation someone made.

stavros 3y ago
You just reminded me that there hasn't been a single time I broke my "don't touch gender politics with a ten-foot pole" rule and didn't regret it.
- charred_patina 3y ago
  I am sorry you don't have the maturity to process different points of view.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
> Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you? Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong?
- charred_patina 3y ago
  > Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong? I am asking Stavros to consider that Women readers may be hyper-aware of bad male writing due to its ubiquity. Stavros does not have this view and is upset that someone made him aware of their perspective. I am not a woman so I am not as aware of bad female writing, but when I consume media around women they are able to pick up on things that I would never have noticed. Stavros' inability to understand something this basic means he either has a hard time understanding that people have different POVs, or is so entrenched in anti-gender politics that he can't even fathom a woman's perspective of being forced to read bad writing without getting upset about... (something??? I am not sure what).
  - stavros 3y ago
    Why does it have to be "bad male writing" or "bad female writing" rather than "bad writing"? How does gender add anything here?
    - charred_patina 3y ago
      The answer I am going to give you starts with the idea that we live in a patriarchy, where men are programmed with a subconscious bias about women. If you can't entertain that idea then you will disagree with everything I say afterwards, but just hear me out for the sake of argument. This unconscious bias is mostly invisible to men, but very visible to women. Women realize acutely that they are being treated differently in social interactions or in portrayals in fiction. They have to experience it every single day so it becomes really obvious. Now some examples of "Bad Writing" could be creating a Mary Sue, or having too much exposition. Neither of these have anything to do with gender. "Bad Male Writing" would be a phenomenon that comes about as a result of subconscious bias that a man learns from growing up in a patriarchical society. Some examples of "Bad Male Writing" would be not characterizing women enough, spending a lot of time on their appearances, etc. It sounds like what tipped OP off to the author being male was the irrationality of one of the female characters. To steal from another comment in this thread: > I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from. > How does gender add anything here? It adds something to the analysis because men and women have different experiences and that informs their worldview. The whole internet meme of men thinking about the roman empire is relevant here. When men think about the Roman empire they think about the conquest, the logistics, the infrastructure, the engineering, the military tactics, etc. When women think about the Roman empire they usually think about how horrible it must have been to live under it as a woman. Men (mostly) don't consider the difficulty of menstruation in a city without a sewer system. Or the danger of childbirth in a world without germ theory and basic hygiene. There is an entire dimension to the roman empire that the male fantasy overlooks. These aren't insane or radical concepts, most of this is "pop culture" feminism I have learned literally just by talking to women.

stavros 3y ago

You just reminded me that there hasn't been a single time I broke my "don't touch gender politics with a ten-foot pole" rule and didn't regret it.

charred_patina 3y ago
I am sorry you don't have the maturity to process different points of view.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

> Have you considered that your POV is limited, and that a woman reading this story (and every other story) might have a different perspective than you? Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong?

charred_patina 3y ago
> Are you seriously asking 'stavros if he considered that other people may have sexist views and therefore his non-sexist view take is wrong? I am asking Stavros to consider that Women readers may be hyper-aware of bad male writing due to its ubiquity. Stavros does not have this view and is upset that someone made him aware of their perspective. I am not a woman so I am not as aware of bad female writing, but when I consume media around women they are able to pick up on things that I would never have noticed. Stavros' inability to understand something this basic means he either has a hard time understanding that people have different POVs, or is so entrenched in anti-gender politics that he can't even fathom a woman's perspective of being forced to read bad writing without getting upset about... (something??? I am not sure what).
- stavros 3y ago
  Why does it have to be "bad male writing" or "bad female writing" rather than "bad writing"? How does gender add anything here?
  - charred_patina 3y ago
    The answer I am going to give you starts with the idea that we live in a patriarchy, where men are programmed with a subconscious bias about women. If you can't entertain that idea then you will disagree with everything I say afterwards, but just hear me out for the sake of argument. This unconscious bias is mostly invisible to men, but very visible to women. Women realize acutely that they are being treated differently in social interactions or in portrayals in fiction. They have to experience it every single day so it becomes really obvious. Now some examples of "Bad Writing" could be creating a Mary Sue, or having too much exposition. Neither of these have anything to do with gender. "Bad Male Writing" would be a phenomenon that comes about as a result of subconscious bias that a man learns from growing up in a patriarchical society. Some examples of "Bad Male Writing" would be not characterizing women enough, spending a lot of time on their appearances, etc. It sounds like what tipped OP off to the author being male was the irrationality of one of the female characters. To steal from another comment in this thread: > I am blaming the author for producing a work that is just shallow in a gendered feeling way. Were the author a woman, they might have realized that women don't just do things randomly but instead, drawing on her past experience being a woman, that they usually have a backstory where these things originate from. > How does gender add anything here? It adds something to the analysis because men and women have different experiences and that informs their worldview. The whole internet meme of men thinking about the roman empire is relevant here. When men think about the Roman empire they think about the conquest, the logistics, the infrastructure, the engineering, the military tactics, etc. When women think about the Roman empire they usually think about how horrible it must have been to live under it as a woman. Men (mostly) don't consider the difficulty of menstruation in a city without a sewer system. Or the danger of childbirth in a world without germ theory and basic hygiene. There is an entire dimension to the roman empire that the male fantasy overlooks. These aren't insane or radical concepts, most of this is "pop culture" feminism I have learned literally just by talking to women.