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The Fediverse is something that we already tried in many different fashions and it was never mass-adopted because it doesn't have the features that people want.

The Fediverse is something that we already tried in many different fashions and it was never mass-adopted because it doesn't have the features that people want. It's the API equivalent of people asking for iPhones while nerds keep on throwing Raspberry Pis at them and pretend that they're the same thing if you squint hard enough. It is not the same, it will never be the same, you will never get the masses to adopt it, so if you want to do the hobbyist thing go ahead. Just don't be upset when nobody gives a crap about your federated platform and you're forever 5 years from being adopted by the masses regardless of the date.

redserk 3y ago
What features are missing? The big barrier to adoption is people and content. Mastodon has been an okay twitter replacement with its feature set, it’s just missing people. Threads appears to have succeeded by bootstrapping their platform with major accounts, brands and popular personalities. This isn’t a thing more feature development can solve.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  It's missing people because 98% of people can't get past the 'pick an instance' stage, when it's not at all obvious why you should pick any given instance or what the repercussions will be. Imagine if you had to pick a particular node to access Facebook, or select a particular data center before you started shopping on Amazon. Consumers just want to find people and exchange a mix of public and private messages, they do not want to be bothered with the dogma of federation.
  - redserk 3y ago
    A bit over a year ago, sure, but this is a bit incorrect in the month of December 2023. Mastodon is, by far, the most active software and both their app and site now guide you to Mastodon.social. https://joinmastodon.org/ https://joinmastodon.org/
sleepybrett 3y ago
... yup, email was a total failure.
- OccamsMirror 3y ago
  Do you think email would be a success if it was invented now?
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Email succeeded because there wasn't anything better, and of course it's become baroque in the meantime as the need for security and other features have been added. What worked 50 years is not going to work today just because it's technically similar, the environment has changed and it's foolish to ignore that.
  - boudin 3y ago
    There is still no replacement for email though. It still very much work today and is the only solution to send message over the Internet, regardless of the person you want to reach. Non federated networks will never reach the adoption of email.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      You're missing the point; it did indeed succeed and is now embedded in our digital infrastructure because it got there first. But it does not follow that launching something else today using the same model will be able to get the same uptake, because there are many competing offerings.
      - boudin 3y ago
        I don't see many competing offering. I can think of XMPP, Matrix, I'm sure there are a few others but it's definitely not many. You're right that the environment changed, but not for the best. Many people would jump on a federated messaging network, not because it's federated but because they won't need to use dozens of app and accounts to communicate. It is more the business incentives that are not there. Email surely has succeeded because SMTP was the de-facto communication protocol when Internet developed, but it is still successful and relevant because it is still the de-facto communication protocol.
abdullahkhalids 3y ago
Limewire, the filesharing software was installed on one-third of computers worldwide in 2007 [1]. The problem is that software-engineers have lost their way. Limewire was a one-click install. Mastodon requires twenty arcane steps. Once you let average-joe one-click install and host, Mastodon will very rapidly rise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LimeWire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LimeWire
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  Limewire gave people for free what they were acclimated to paying for. People already get social media for free. There's no reason for them to switch.
  - abdullahkhalids 3y ago
    The popularity of discord servers and subreddits, or for that matter closed facebook/telegram groups, speaks otherwise. People want control over their communities.
    - jazzyjackson 3y ago
      Sorry I thought we were talking about why federation will or wont succeed success of reddit and facebook feel like counterexamples if they can offer for free the privacy controls that most people are satisfied by (you certainly have very little control over your subreddit or your discord - all your shit is plaintext and can get deleted tomorrow if the service provider determines their best interest diverges from yours) I probably agree with you, in that if self hosted solutions were one click installs and modest cost they would be more popular, but I can't tell.
  - gwd 3y ago
    > There's no reason for them to switch. The reason to switch is that once you get over the initial barriers to entry (having to choose which server to join being a lot bigger barrier than most Fediverse activists seem to realize), the experience is SO MUCH BETTER. You get posts from people you've followed, in the order they were posted, and when you've read them all, you're done. No adverts, no infinite scroll, no wading through 75% "you may be interested in this soft-core porn" posts to see stuff from people you actually followed.

redserk 3y ago

What features are missing? The big barrier to adoption is people and content. Mastodon has been an okay twitter replacement with its feature set, it’s just missing people. Threads appears to have succeeded by bootstrapping their platform with major accounts, brands and popular personalities. This isn’t a thing more feature development can solve.

anigbrowl 3y ago
It's missing people because 98% of people can't get past the 'pick an instance' stage, when it's not at all obvious why you should pick any given instance or what the repercussions will be. Imagine if you had to pick a particular node to access Facebook, or select a particular data center before you started shopping on Amazon. Consumers just want to find people and exchange a mix of public and private messages, they do not want to be bothered with the dogma of federation.
- redserk 3y ago
  A bit over a year ago, sure, but this is a bit incorrect in the month of December 2023. Mastodon is, by far, the most active software and both their app and site now guide you to Mastodon.social. https://joinmastodon.org/ https://joinmastodon.org/

sleepybrett 3y ago

... yup, email was a total failure.

OccamsMirror 3y ago
Do you think email would be a success if it was invented now?
anigbrowl 3y ago
Email succeeded because there wasn't anything better, and of course it's become baroque in the meantime as the need for security and other features have been added. What worked 50 years is not going to work today just because it's technically similar, the environment has changed and it's foolish to ignore that.
- boudin 3y ago
  There is still no replacement for email though. It still very much work today and is the only solution to send message over the Internet, regardless of the person you want to reach. Non federated networks will never reach the adoption of email.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    You're missing the point; it did indeed succeed and is now embedded in our digital infrastructure because it got there first. But it does not follow that launching something else today using the same model will be able to get the same uptake, because there are many competing offerings.
    - boudin 3y ago
      I don't see many competing offering. I can think of XMPP, Matrix, I'm sure there are a few others but it's definitely not many. You're right that the environment changed, but not for the best. Many people would jump on a federated messaging network, not because it's federated but because they won't need to use dozens of app and accounts to communicate. It is more the business incentives that are not there. Email surely has succeeded because SMTP was the de-facto communication protocol when Internet developed, but it is still successful and relevant because it is still the de-facto communication protocol.

abdullahkhalids 3y ago

Limewire, the filesharing software was installed on one-third of computers worldwide in 2007 [1]. The problem is that software-engineers have lost their way. Limewire was a one-click install. Mastodon requires twenty arcane steps. Once you let average-joe one-click install and host, Mastodon will very rapidly rise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LimeWire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LimeWire

jazzyjackson 3y ago
Limewire gave people for free what they were acclimated to paying for. People already get social media for free. There's no reason for them to switch.
- abdullahkhalids 3y ago
  The popularity of discord servers and subreddits, or for that matter closed facebook/telegram groups, speaks otherwise. People want control over their communities.
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    Sorry I thought we were talking about why federation will or wont succeed success of reddit and facebook feel like counterexamples if they can offer for free the privacy controls that most people are satisfied by (you certainly have very little control over your subreddit or your discord - all your shit is plaintext and can get deleted tomorrow if the service provider determines their best interest diverges from yours) I probably agree with you, in that if self hosted solutions were one click installs and modest cost they would be more popular, but I can't tell.
- gwd 3y ago
  > There's no reason for them to switch. The reason to switch is that once you get over the initial barriers to entry (having to choose which server to join being a lot bigger barrier than most Fediverse activists seem to realize), the experience is SO MUCH BETTER. You get posts from people you've followed, in the order they were posted, and when you've read them all, you're done. No adverts, no infinite scroll, no wading through 75% "you may be interested in this soft-core porn" posts to see stuff from people you actually followed.