4 ms·

Given what's in this, why are EVSEs so expensive? Given the quantities we see, the $150 range should be more than enough for a decent profit.

by jtagen 3y ago

sowbug 3y ago
Supply and demand. See also $40 HDMI cables at Best Buy.
- jtagen 3y ago
  I'm not sure I buy this. If someone can hack this together for <$100 at home, there should be plenty of supply to meet the demand. $40 HDMI cables are an option (albeit a terrible one). For EVSEs, there really isn't a reasonably-priced alternative on the market right now.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Most people aren't going to DIY something like this. Also, most people think that the price of a product should only be based on the price of its components, and possibly willing to accept a mark up on labor. However, the companies making a thing, whatever that thing might be, also has to make money to be able to pay the people that work for the company, the utility bills, and the rent. There's also the fact that the companies making a thing don't get the retail price you pay. They sell it at the wholesale rate to the vendors, so there's even less margin than the retail price suggest for the makers. Just some things to keep in mind
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      In engineering university, I learned the “retail needs to be 5x the BoM* cost” rule of thumb. For a very high value or very high units product, maybe you could shave that to 4x or slightly less, but there are a lot of hands between the designed part and the retail consumer and none of them want to work for free. * BoM - Bill of Materials (“what stuff goes into this thing?”)
      - dylan604 3y ago
        4x was also the minimum retail price I've been taught as well. The wholesale rate has also been anywhere from 50% - 75% of the retail price depending on the negotiations with the retailer. This is ignoring soulless companies like Walmarts/Amazons/etc where you'll never make those numbers. Something people don't always consider that when they buy something from the retailer directly, they typically make more money from that sale than if you bought the same thing from Walmart. Buying something from somewhere like Etsy vs their direct site also takes a healthy chunk.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        That’s what I find so infuriating about many first-party sites. I’ll often find something on Amazon and if it seems like it’s from a small business, I’ll check to see if I can buy it direct. (Arguably, this behavior is unethical on my part against Amazon, but whatever.) I very rarely (like <10% of the time) find the first-party site to have an offer that even matches Amazon’s. Look, I tried. I came to you and gave you a shot, but if you want to charge the same item price and also tack on $15 of shipping, I’ve received your message (“please buy it from Amazon; we don’t want to sell it to you direct…”) loud and clear. I’m usually willing to wait a few extra days, pay the same price, and have worse returns possibility in order for you to double or triple your variable transaction profit, but you’ve got to be competitive.
        applied_heat 3y ago
        Sounds like the manufacturer just wants to ship palettes of the product to amazon and not deal directly with individual customers and are happy to have amazon make their markup for the service they provide.
        dylan604 3y ago
        Yeah, sites willing to accept the full retail price and not discount the shipping to match a larger vendor's site, then of course they're firing their footgun with both barrels. There's a reason places will offer free shipping with minimum purchase prices that ensures there's enough profit made to cover the cost of the shipping. The hassle of inventory/shipping logistics is something people with no experience easily do not consider.
hristov 3y ago
I see $200 evse’s on amazon nowadays. Only 32 amps tho. As to why they are so expensive one has to keep in mind these are inherently dangerous so they do not buy the cheapest parts, they have to go through a longish federal approval process and the companies probably have higher insurance costs.
- dylan604 3y ago
  > As to why they are so expensive one has to keep in mind these are inherently dangerous so they do not buy the cheapest parts, they have to go through a longish federal approval process and the companies probably have higher insurance costs. We hope. I don't trust anything being sold on Amazon or any other such website known for scams, knockoffs, and otherwise shite products being passed for legit. I'm less concerned about the price of the components vs the quality of the components. You can have cheap quality but a high price just to fool people that expensive is good.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Could you say more about or provide links to this “federal approval process”? It’s the first I’ve heard of it for at-home level 2 EVSE units.
  - analog31 3y ago
    I'm not an EE, but I work with them. As it stands right now, governments don't directly approve consumer products, except perhaps in some rare cases. When my employer gets a new product certified, we take it to a private firm. As with the misnomers about the "charger" terminology, I could appreciate a layperson getting this confused.
KennyBlanken 3y ago
At first, relatively low volume and lack of competition (this has improved), and testing for compliance with all the various standards. It's often not enough to just have a product examined/tested, some standards require periodic "surveillance" of manufacturing.
cmptrnerd6 3y ago
Safety certifications add to cost. We recently took an EVSE through certification and although we passed on the first try it was still expensive and to pass on the first try we did extensive testing and documentation before submission.
_ea1k 3y ago
A lot of it is the connector and cable. Good connectors are surprisingly expensive.
DavidKarlas 3y ago
Well there is also software... I really liked go-eCharger HOME+ 11kW, because it has 3-phase "European connector" and I can go almost anywhere in europe take it with me and charge there... I usually take it with me when I go to my parents so I don't have to stop on way at fast charger... Anyway.. I paid 650EUR, well above price of parts cost... But mobile app and firmware keep getting updated and it keeps getting features like "charge from solar" better scheduler, also supports multiple chargers to limit total amps...
BluePen7 3y ago
The Tesla official one is $230. All you need then is a breaker, dryer outlet, and some thick gauge wire between the two.

Given what's in this, why are EVSEs so expensive? Given the quantities we see, the $150 range should be more than enough for a decent profit.

by jtagen 3y ago

Given what's in this, why are EVSEs so expensive? Given the quantities we see, the $150 range should be more than enough for a decent profit.

sowbug 3y ago

Supply and demand. See also $40 HDMI cables at Best Buy.

jtagen 3y ago
I'm not sure I buy this. If someone can hack this together for <$100 at home, there should be plenty of supply to meet the demand. $40 HDMI cables are an option (albeit a terrible one). For EVSEs, there really isn't a reasonably-priced alternative on the market right now.
- dylan604 3y ago
  Most people aren't going to DIY something like this. Also, most people think that the price of a product should only be based on the price of its components, and possibly willing to accept a mark up on labor. However, the companies making a thing, whatever that thing might be, also has to make money to be able to pay the people that work for the company, the utility bills, and the rent. There's also the fact that the companies making a thing don't get the retail price you pay. They sell it at the wholesale rate to the vendors, so there's even less margin than the retail price suggest for the makers. Just some things to keep in mind
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    In engineering university, I learned the “retail needs to be 5x the BoM* cost” rule of thumb. For a very high value or very high units product, maybe you could shave that to 4x or slightly less, but there are a lot of hands between the designed part and the retail consumer and none of them want to work for free. * BoM - Bill of Materials (“what stuff goes into this thing?”)
    - dylan604 3y ago
      4x was also the minimum retail price I've been taught as well. The wholesale rate has also been anywhere from 50% - 75% of the retail price depending on the negotiations with the retailer. This is ignoring soulless companies like Walmarts/Amazons/etc where you'll never make those numbers. Something people don't always consider that when they buy something from the retailer directly, they typically make more money from that sale than if you bought the same thing from Walmart. Buying something from somewhere like Etsy vs their direct site also takes a healthy chunk.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        That’s what I find so infuriating about many first-party sites. I’ll often find something on Amazon and if it seems like it’s from a small business, I’ll check to see if I can buy it direct. (Arguably, this behavior is unethical on my part against Amazon, but whatever.) I very rarely (like <10% of the time) find the first-party site to have an offer that even matches Amazon’s. Look, I tried. I came to you and gave you a shot, but if you want to charge the same item price and also tack on $15 of shipping, I’ve received your message (“please buy it from Amazon; we don’t want to sell it to you direct…”) loud and clear. I’m usually willing to wait a few extra days, pay the same price, and have worse returns possibility in order for you to double or triple your variable transaction profit, but you’ve got to be competitive.
        applied_heat 3y ago
        Sounds like the manufacturer just wants to ship palettes of the product to amazon and not deal directly with individual customers and are happy to have amazon make their markup for the service they provide.
        dylan604 3y ago
        Yeah, sites willing to accept the full retail price and not discount the shipping to match a larger vendor's site, then of course they're firing their footgun with both barrels. There's a reason places will offer free shipping with minimum purchase prices that ensures there's enough profit made to cover the cost of the shipping. The hassle of inventory/shipping logistics is something people with no experience easily do not consider.

hristov 3y ago

I see $200 evse’s on amazon nowadays. Only 32 amps tho. As to why they are so expensive one has to keep in mind these are inherently dangerous so they do not buy the cheapest parts, they have to go through a longish federal approval process and the companies probably have higher insurance costs.

dylan604 3y ago
> As to why they are so expensive one has to keep in mind these are inherently dangerous so they do not buy the cheapest parts, they have to go through a longish federal approval process and the companies probably have higher insurance costs. We hope. I don't trust anything being sold on Amazon or any other such website known for scams, knockoffs, and otherwise shite products being passed for legit. I'm less concerned about the price of the components vs the quality of the components. You can have cheap quality but a high price just to fool people that expensive is good.
sokoloff 3y ago
Could you say more about or provide links to this “federal approval process”? It’s the first I’ve heard of it for at-home level 2 EVSE units.
- analog31 3y ago
  I'm not an EE, but I work with them. As it stands right now, governments don't directly approve consumer products, except perhaps in some rare cases. When my employer gets a new product certified, we take it to a private firm. As with the misnomers about the "charger" terminology, I could appreciate a layperson getting this confused.

KennyBlanken 3y ago

At first, relatively low volume and lack of competition (this has improved), and testing for compliance with all the various standards. It's often not enough to just have a product examined/tested, some standards require periodic "surveillance" of manufacturing.

cmptrnerd6 3y ago

Safety certifications add to cost. We recently took an EVSE through certification and although we passed on the first try it was still expensive and to pass on the first try we did extensive testing and documentation before submission.

_ea1k 3y ago

A lot of it is the connector and cable. Good connectors are surprisingly expensive.

DavidKarlas 3y ago

Well there is also software... I really liked go-eCharger HOME+ 11kW, because it has 3-phase "European connector" and I can go almost anywhere in europe take it with me and charge there... I usually take it with me when I go to my parents so I don't have to stop on way at fast charger... Anyway.. I paid 650EUR, well above price of parts cost... But mobile app and firmware keep getting updated and it keeps getting features like "charge from solar" better scheduler, also supports multiple chargers to limit total amps...

BluePen7 3y ago

The Tesla official one is $230. All you need then is a breaker, dryer outlet, and some thick gauge wire between the two.