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US Visual Approaches: Lessons from the LH458 Incident
- dilyevsky 3y ago> ATC: I can’t have this conversation with you. Either divert to Oakland, or you can continue to hold, it’s up to you. > CREW: Okay, you promised me 10 minutes, that ran out four minutes ago. So how many more minutes? > ATC: Conversation is over. You want to divert? Or you want to continue with the delay? Is this normal for ATC to communicate like this? This sounds like some people I worked with in previous job with much lower stakes involved… Given all the recent incidents I suspect it’s basically decided that US ATC will cause a major crash we just don’t know when
- nihonthrowaway 3y agoATC doesn't have time to fuck around. This whole thing is Lufthansa fault for mandating that they so special that they get an ILS approach while everybody else can do a visual approach. Their drama, their problem.
- dilyevsky 3y ago> While a delay in air traffic is understandable, adhering to the announced duration (which clearly had the characteristics of an Expected Approach Time) is crucial to ensure safety. In this case, the crew experienced confusion when their EAT was not met, leading to concerns about fuel reserves and potential emergencies. Efficient coordination between ATC and crews is essential to prevent such situations Sounds like atc having in fact time to fuck around was the root of the issue here
- leetrout 3y agoWhoa, slow down there. > The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has banned foreign pilots from making visual approaches to San Francisco airport runways 28 left and right. This was in 2013. My understanding is some foreign carriers took this into company SOP. https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/520332-faa-bans-visual-approaches-foreign-airlines-san-francisco-airport.html https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/520332-faa-bans-visu...
- inferiorhuman 3y agoIf memory serves that restriction was lifted in large part because Lufthansa complained.
- pdonis 3y ago> This was in 2013. And it looks like it was temporary due to a glide slope indicator being out of service, and was supposed to go away in late August 2013.
- inferiorhuman 3y agoIf this is their standard procedure surely it made its way into the flight plan they filed. A Lufthansa requirement for an ILS approach should've come as no surprise to anyone at SFO. If the ILS was unavailable for some reason there should've been a relevant NOTAM, in which case the crew would've either diverted or not performed the flight. And lastly, even among domestic airlines nighttime visual approaches are not always allowed by SOP. e.g. https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-368284.html https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-368284.html
- dilyevsky 3y agoThis flight has been around for at least 10 years, Id assume anyone working sfo atc should also be aware of their procedures
- dralley 3y ago>Is this normal for ATC to communicate like this? This sounds like some people I worked with in previous job with much lower stakes involved… No, it's not normal. I've watched a lot of "ATC recording incident videos" and SFO are notable for how many there are and how egregious. another example of a powertripping controller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzBTZctiAg&t=2m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzBTZctiAg&t=2m20s
- asylteltine 3y agoI assumed this was about SFO before I read it. What is it about that area to have the worst controllers?
- jacknews 3y agoYeah, seems like one lesson to learn is don't let ATC be jerks.
- Full_Clark 3y ago> Is this normal for ATC to communicate like this? This sounds like some people I worked with in previous job with much lower stakes involved… Caveat, while flying I'd hate to hear this from a controller if I'm on the edge of consuming my reserve fuel. But before judging this particular controller I'd be interested to know what the other comms traffic was like, both with this plane and also the pace of the rest of the arrivals. I don't want to pick on ATC if the seemingly sudden onset of aggression was cherry-picked for the blog from a conversation that had already tried to handle the matter politely. It's also important to understand that many US ATC facilities are understaffed, the controllers are overworked, and a high incidence of rostering them for extra shifts will leave them fatigued. It doesn't make it any easier for the pilots to get the plane on the ground when they're getting short shrift from ATC like this, but the core of the problem is ATC training and turnover rates. Not one particular controller getting cranky with pilots because he/she is powertripping.
- jonas21 3y agoThe ATC frequency isn't for complaints. The controller needs the frequency free to communicate with other planes. When he says "I can’t have this conversation with you," he literally means that he cannot have the conversation and continue to direct traffic. What's printed in the article is a summary of what was actually said. The Lufthansa pilot was talking much more than necessary.
- ApolloFortyNine 3y agoThis same airport had a crash during visual approach during the day no? Seems wild to give huge delays to anyone not willing to do a visual approach, it's clearly pressuring pilots to accept the visual approach when they may not be comfortable with it. And I do believe the atc has to provide accurate (to their knowledge) accounts of what the delay is, to ensure flights can divert before being out of fuel. Even saying 'we don't know how long the delay is' is at least information. It seems incredibly clear from the logs the controller was being an ass as well. No need to go 0-100 part when asked about how long the delay is, pilots literally need that information.
- dehrmann 3y ago> This same airport had a crash during visual approach during the day no? I did a quick google and couldn't find this.
- baggy_trough 3y agoPresumably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214
- ApolloFortyNine 3y agoThat's it, not sure what they googled, it comes up first when searching San Francisco airplane crash...
- dehrmann 3y agoI was expecting something more recent.
- pedrocr 3y agoThis seems like one of the reasons for the policy to always use ILS at SFO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_759 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_759 "The NTSB determined the probable cause was the Air Canada flight crew's confusion of the runway with the parallel taxiway, with contributing causes including the crew's failure to use the instrument landing system (ILS), as well as pilot fatigue. A retired pilot stated the runway confusion that almost happened "probably came close to the greatest aviation disaster in history"[2][3][4][5] as five airplanes and potentially over 1,000 passengers were at imminent risk of a disaster greater than the Tenerife airport disaster."
- lawguy 3y agoThe key dialog happens at 1:18 in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rdapQfJDAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rdapQfJDAM): > Lufthansa 458 heavy, just for my planning purposes and for the Final controller's planning purposes, can you maintain visual separation with the aircraft at night? > 458 heavy, exactly that is what is not allowed [laughs] The controller was trying to give the pilot an out by allowing him to comply with his company's procedures prohibiting visual approaches, but allowing him to make an instrument landing so long as he was capable of looking out his window to ensure that he has specific other aircraft in sight. Note that this is required for parallel landings at SFO because of the very close proximity of the runways otherwise prohibits simultaneous approaches. The problem is that, under the FAA regulations, all aircraft operating in visual conditions (which includes a clear night) have a duty to maintain vigilance "so as to see and avoid other aircraft" regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules. 14 C.F.R. § 91.113 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.113 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.113) In essence, the Lufthansa pilot was telegraphing his refusal to even comply with the basic flight regulations that all aircraft have to comply with (regardless of instrument or visual flight rules). The combination of (1) refusing to accept a visual approach, and (2) refusing to even abide by the minimum requirements for operation in U.S. airspace (to see and avoid other aircraft), even on an instrument approach, caused the excessive delay.
- sbuttgereit 3y agoIt's worth noting that the VASAviation video you posted has a follow-up also posted by VASAviation: "ANALYSIS | Angry Lufthansa Pilot with REAL CONTROLLER Commentary" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHxdn8oz20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHxdn8oz20 The a comment from VASAviation that goes along with that video: "Thanks to this Norcal Tracon controller who reached me to give his point of view of a situation he knows well, as he is a very experienced controller in the Bay Area. He knows the controllers in the video and knows procedures in good detail. If I have missed something in the video that you are interested to know, please leave a comment. I included all relevant factors that I considered of importance and even trimming things out, it's still a 26 minute video. [CLIP] Date was 17 October at 03:40 UTC and on. Just in case you want to inquire into it a bit deeper. Point of the video is providing more context to the original video: ATIS, other airplanes interactions, the entire airspace view... and of course the valuable commentary of a real controller who works that one and other similar positions daily. You can stand for the controller's or pilot's side, but please be respectful. I know the majority of the audience is not real pilots, controllers, dispatchers... so if you are, please show respect to them and exhibit your knowledge on the topic so they can understand. My final conclusion to this is that Lufthansa (unlike Philippines) reached SFO and requested the ILS when the arrivals streams were busiest, thence receiving indefinite delay vectors. Nobody's fault. Just bad timing regarding the totality of inbounds. [CLIP]"
- petschge 3y agoShould have declared a fuel emergency and fucked that controller well and good. These games that ATC in America plays with safety to improve throughput (read profits) need to end before we have 400 souls lost.
- dehrmann 3y agoAbsolutely not. If it's not a real fuel emergency, you don't want regulators questioning your ability as a pilot in a foreign country. If it is a real fuel emergency, you don't want to put lives at risk over a spat with ATC. Play the game, go home late, but safe, and let the internet deal with ATC and maybe Lufthansa can rethink its policies regarding SFO.
- petschge 3y agoHow safe are an extra hour around KSFO, an hour turnaround and 45 more minutes flying after a long haul flight because an ATC wants to feel like the unquestioned king?
- MadnessASAP 3y agoI don't have the FAA crew time regulations on hand, or Lufthansa policies. However I would be extremely surprised if they used the same pilots.
- pas 3y agoIs it possible to check it somehow? Did Lufthansa just had a spare pilot in/around Oakland?
- dehrmann 3y agoI wonder how they do that. There's only one SFO-FRA flight per day flown by Lufthansa, so if a pilot gets sick, you don't want that delaying the flight and causing a rebooking headache.
- willyt 3y agoIsn’t San Francisco famous for its fog, and aren’t flight timetables set 6 months in advance? How does the system cope when the weather is bad and you have to halve the number of flights landing? Surely the timetables must have a fair amount of slack for days when an ILS landing is required?
- bagels 3y agoRe: Fog, your flight takes off from Oakland instead of SFO. It's not fun.
- ralph84 3y agoLufthansa shouldn’t be scheduling flights to arrive at night if their pilots are unable to perform the approaches everyone else is performing.
- BJBBB 3y agoUnless the ATIS specifically stated that you should expect a visual approach, the controller violated FARs and is part of a criminal conspiracy. Also, phrases and specific words that controllers are allowed and required to use are well documented. The transcript revealed the use of non-standard terms; which is very dangerous when a controller does not precisely communicate with a pilot using English as a non-primary language. I am a licensed (private) pilot with an instrument rating. I fly a GA airplane aprox 150 hr/yr, mostly for business. Within the previous two years, FAA controllers have given me incorrect instructions in three seperate instances, twice while I was deep in the soup. The controllers failed to correct their errors even after my readback, then yelled at me when I wasn't going where they wanted me to go. Each time, I had a camera on the panel and the camera's audio connected to the ICS and radios. The latest incident, the controller told me to call them after landing. I refused to talk to them without legal counsel, so they forwarded the incident to an Air Safety Investigator. My lawyer listened to the controller's many falsehoods, then listened to the investigator ask me questions. Then my lawyer talked to the investigator as follows: lawyer - have you pulled the tapes? FAA - yes, but I have not listened to them. lawyer - do you think that the controller could have given him an incorrect vector? FAA - not possible. lawyer - please listen to this. [plays video on computer] FAA - [after playing video] we cannot further discuss this. We will need [controller] to bring a union rep. me - Why don't we send the video to the FBI. Isn't it a felony to lie to a federal investigator? FAA - [quickly exits room] Most enroute controllers are working six days a week. I do not care, so am I. Many, perhaps most, experienced controllers are making north of $200k. I am not. Final note. When dealing with any level of authority, record everything. Put cameras in your home, in your vehicles, and on your body. The authorities, whether it be the local police or the feds, are not there to help. You will lose money and time and freedom if you cannot document their incompetence and malfeasance; and even then you may still go to jail.
- ralph84 3y agoCool story, but of course the SFO ATIS specifically mentions visual approaches when they’re in use. In fact it’s night VMC right now and the current ATIS says: > SIMULTANEOUS CHARTED VISUAL FLIGHT PROCEDURES IN USE. LNDG RWYS 28L, 28R https://datis.clowd.io/KSFO https://datis.clowd.io/KSFO