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I've observed that, too. "Death panels" conducted in public by parties appointed by accountable representatives are somehow repugnant, but having decisions made

I've observed that, too. "Death panels" conducted in public by parties appointed by accountable representatives are somehow repugnant, but having decisions made by completely unaccountable and inscrutable bodies is somehow okay. These decisions have to be made, why would we not want them made under some amount of public scrutiny?

buildbot 3y ago
Exactly. The sad reality is in any (mostly) closed system, say, the USA or even earth, there are resource limits and you might be able to do more good by treating 4 patients with more simple cancer's vs. 1 patient with a very complex cancer that requires 10 doctors, 20 scientists, and endless support staff working over months to create a personal gene therapy for you. It's difficult and sad, but as a sibling comment said, it's literally the Trolley problem. Until we live in a utopia with nearly limitless resources, then the problem still applies, in both the public and private sector. I'd rather have it be public too.
- TehCorwiz 3y ago
  You’re assuming that the efforts don’t feed back into knowledge and treatment for other people when in reality it does. But even outside that extreme example people are regularly denied treatment for existing easily treated ailments.
- fragmede 3y ago
  That assumes the 10 doctors and 20 scientists and support staff are fungible resources. Which they are not. Those 10 doctors have 10 different specialties and those scientists aren't going to suddenly become nurses that can administer the simple patient's therapies. Advances made in creating customized gene therapies will be used to help others, later.
  - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
    You're making an argument for a more organized society, not a less organized society. In your example, the solution is not letting 9 more people die but rather having a greater number of generalized doctors, in place of some specialized doctors if need be.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      my point is more that the less organized society that we have which lets people choose their own destiny leads to one where we don't have the generalists to save the 9, so it's less of a trolley problem because of the difference in urgency.
      - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
        You are failing to make your point. What urgency are you talking about?
        fragmede 3y ago
        Trolley problem is to choice to flip a switch. If the switch to be flipped results in their deaths in 5 minutes is different than a decision that takes 10 years of advanced schooling to see the results.
        xkekjrktllss 3y ago
        This is irrelevant. We either plan and fix the problem or we don't plan and don't fix the problem. That's it. There are no terms in which any proposal of yours even improves the results, so you have no point.
        fragmede 3y ago
        That's unnecessarily combative. I'm not sure how we got here. Can you enlighten me as to what the problem is and why you think I'm fighting you on this?
- varelse 3y ago
  [dead]
- konschubert 3y ago
  That’s why we need economic growth
  - konschubert 3y ago
    To the people downvoting: Would you elaborate why you think I’m wrong?
dragonwriter 3y ago
> but having decisions made by completely unaccountable and inscrutable bodies is somehow okay. They are accountable—directly and exclusively to capital—which is both why they are okay to the people funding the political propaganda in question and why the alternative (where that is not true, since there is, at least indirect, democratic accountability) is not. Capitalism and democracy are different, and fundamentally conflicting, systems of organizing power. This is often overlooked because capitalism is described as “economic” and democracy as “political”, but those are different ways of describing systems of organizing power over others which is fungible between domains.
phpisthebest 3y ago
>>conducted in public by parties appointed by accountable representatives are somehow repugnant, Well this where you find the problem, to me and many many others choosing a medical / insurance providers from an array of medical / insurance providers seems to provide MUCH MUCH more accountability then "parties appointed by accountable representatives " who are not really accountable at all, and whom elections are based on any number of issues very rarely would be the status of medical dealth panels, for the US currently would the "hot button" topics of the day (and for the last several decades) immigration, abortion and gun control This mythical idea that elections are how we hold the unelected bureaucracy in check has many many many examples of being completely and utterly false, unelected bureaucracy has ZERO fear of the election cycle most of the time. Meet the new boss, sames as the old boss, and almost none of them every leave. Of all the industries government bureaucracy has some of the longest tenured employees next only to education where once a person joins an agency they never leave until death or retirement. The Rare Exception is the regulatory capture of ruling making boards and committee's where there is a revolving corrupt door between the public and private sectors.

buildbot 3y ago

Exactly. The sad reality is in any (mostly) closed system, say, the USA or even earth, there are resource limits and you might be able to do more good by treating 4 patients with more simple cancer's vs. 1 patient with a very complex cancer that requires 10 doctors, 20 scientists, and endless support staff working over months to create a personal gene therapy for you. It's difficult and sad, but as a sibling comment said, it's literally the Trolley problem. Until we live in a utopia with nearly limitless resources, then the problem still applies, in both the public and private sector. I'd rather have it be public too.

TehCorwiz 3y ago
You’re assuming that the efforts don’t feed back into knowledge and treatment for other people when in reality it does. But even outside that extreme example people are regularly denied treatment for existing easily treated ailments.
fragmede 3y ago
That assumes the 10 doctors and 20 scientists and support staff are fungible resources. Which they are not. Those 10 doctors have 10 different specialties and those scientists aren't going to suddenly become nurses that can administer the simple patient's therapies. Advances made in creating customized gene therapies will be used to help others, later.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  You're making an argument for a more organized society, not a less organized society. In your example, the solution is not letting 9 more people die but rather having a greater number of generalized doctors, in place of some specialized doctors if need be.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    my point is more that the less organized society that we have which lets people choose their own destiny leads to one where we don't have the generalists to save the 9, so it's less of a trolley problem because of the difference in urgency.
    - xkekjrktllss 3y ago
      You are failing to make your point. What urgency are you talking about?
      - fragmede 3y ago
        Trolley problem is to choice to flip a switch. If the switch to be flipped results in their deaths in 5 minutes is different than a decision that takes 10 years of advanced schooling to see the results.
        xkekjrktllss 3y ago
        This is irrelevant. We either plan and fix the problem or we don't plan and don't fix the problem. That's it. There are no terms in which any proposal of yours even improves the results, so you have no point.
        fragmede 3y ago
        That's unnecessarily combative. I'm not sure how we got here. Can you enlighten me as to what the problem is and why you think I'm fighting you on this?
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
konschubert 3y ago
That’s why we need economic growth
- konschubert 3y ago
  To the people downvoting: Would you elaborate why you think I’m wrong?

dragonwriter 3y ago

> but having decisions made by completely unaccountable and inscrutable bodies is somehow okay. They are accountable—directly and exclusively to capital—which is both why they are okay to the people funding the political propaganda in question and why the alternative (where that is not true, since there is, at least indirect, democratic accountability) is not. Capitalism and democracy are different, and fundamentally conflicting, systems of organizing power. This is often overlooked because capitalism is described as “economic” and democracy as “political”, but those are different ways of describing systems of organizing power over others which is fungible between domains.

phpisthebest 3y ago

>>conducted in public by parties appointed by accountable representatives are somehow repugnant, Well this where you find the problem, to me and many many others choosing a medical / insurance providers from an array of medical / insurance providers seems to provide MUCH MUCH more accountability then "parties appointed by accountable representatives " who are not really accountable at all, and whom elections are based on any number of issues very rarely would be the status of medical dealth panels, for the US currently would the "hot button" topics of the day (and for the last several decades) immigration, abortion and gun control This mythical idea that elections are how we hold the unelected bureaucracy in check has many many many examples of being completely and utterly false, unelected bureaucracy has ZERO fear of the election cycle most of the time. Meet the new boss, sames as the old boss, and almost none of them every leave. Of all the industries government bureaucracy has some of the longest tenured employees next only to education where once a person joins an agency they never leave until death or retirement. The Rare Exception is the regulatory capture of ruling making boards and committee's where there is a revolving corrupt door between the public and private sectors.