5 ms·

I'll just echo here what I say whenever Wayland/X11 comes up: multiple monitors and screen tearing. Wayland rocks those two challenges. No screen tearing, I ca

I'll just echo here what I say whenever Wayland/X11 comes up: multiple monitors and screen tearing. Wayland rocks those two challenges. No screen tearing, I can pick scaling for individual monitors on the fly, and the colors look gorgeous. There were features that it was missing in the previous releases -- I have to use a pretty recent version of Fedora to have all the bugs that I need rattled out of KDE so that I can use Wayland -- but it's really going well now. Zoom works thanks to pipe wire, copy and paste works. I hope KFonts will get working soon but I've been able to work around that with fc-cache.

vlovich123 3y ago
Except if you’re an nVidia user which I’m guessing you’re not. Multiple monitors (even single monitor) and graphical glitches and tearing all over the place.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  The latest 545 Nvidia driver is so broken that I had to downgrade back to 535. A huge amount of Linux desktop issues can be traced to Nvidia and their drivers.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Maybe although I haven’t experienced issues that appear to be Nvidia driver issues per se (ie I’ve installed older ones and newer ones and all issues remain). I’m on a desktop 2080 so that may be it. Haven’t noticed anything especially bad with 545. What kinds of issues have you noticed?
  - paulmd 3y ago
    There's an example right above you of NVIDIA's explicit-sync patches being rejected because AMD and Intel aren't ready to move on that piece of functionality yet, despite implicit sync resulting in higher latency and a worse experience for users, and being generally agreed to be undesirable and not the direction they want development to go, which is generally agreed to be what NVIDIA has implemented. And this follows the overall hostility over EGLStreams or whatever it was. They're doing the code and releasing the patches, and they largely capitulated on whatever the EGLStreams issue was supposed to be about, they are leading in what everyone involved seems to agree is "the right direction" and the linux community still can't find their way to "yes". At some point you have to start looking at it as not being entirely NVIDIA's fault - "fuck you, NVIDIA" is no longer an expression of how difficult they are to work with, but rather a generalized expression of hostility from the linux community over perceived historical slights etc. Like, if there's some big history of warfare between IBM and the kernel team, are you just going to reject any patch coming from IBM because you don't like the company, even when it's generally agreed that the patch is generally right and going in the consensus direction, just because you don't like the name on the signoff? That seems to be where the linux community is at these days. The whole "fuck you, nvidia!" thing has always been noxious, that's an example of linus's personal toxicity that a certain segment of the linux community has eagerly celebrated. At best it is a thought-terminating cliche that contributes nothing and drags down the debate, and at worst it's given covering-fire for that segment to act out in their own immature, negative ways, to the detriment of the users. It's not a good look, it's just immature, and at this point it's practically expected from the kernel team. Look who's in charge. And it's not just linus, Greg KH seems pretty bad too, from a casual observer every time I see his name come up it's some childish troublemaking like the symbols-relicensing warfare thing. He's personally made my life worse on multiple occasions, breaking shit that is working for reasons I don't really care about. And I know people think it's for a good cause, but at the end of the day users don't really care about that shit. The BSD/Unix community is generally a lot more adult and mature, and tbh avoiding linux hi-jinx is a great reason to go with a macbook these days. It doesn't have to be this way, the personality-driven shit doesn't exist in most other spaces and they are better for it. The Linux kernel team is almost uniquely bad about this, and it's largely due to poor leadership and toxic individuals at the top that then bleeds into these adjacent spaces and venues. The wayland people feel empowered to act out when the head honcho publically tells a major partner to go fuck themselves, and so on. It kinda is what it is - as long as there are children at the helm, there are gonna be issues in linux-land.
- mariusor 3y ago
  I think it should be a point of pride for the linux developer community that nvidia cards work as well as they do seeing as the company is actually hostile. The only solution for the end user is to vote with their wallets if running linux and/or wayland is important to them. Bringing it as an argument _against_ wayland, however, is missing the point entirely in my opinion.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Well the bug that I’m experiencing is specific to Xwayland and seems to be a bug where the wayland developers are refusing to take Nvidia’s patches to fix the issue. So maybe it is wayland and not the drivers? Nvidia and Google seem to have a decent relationship working together to resolve issues for Linux Chrome Wayland.
    - Vilian 3y ago
      what patches and why?, the other two major gpu company (intel and amd) don't need to send any patch to make their gpu work perfectly on wayland, why nvidia need it?, isn't their fault that their driver system is flawed?
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        Today Xwayland relies on implicitly synchronization. That’s apparently a legacy mechanism. Nvidia wants to add explicit synchronization support which it has as it sounds like the future whereas AMD and Intel aren’t ready for that. Xwayland devs claim the ecosystem isn’t ready and yet if a simple patch fixes the issue for Nvidia and the Xwayland folks agree eventually GPUs will use explicit synchronization, it seems like the Wayland folks are the ones dragging their feet. https://indico.freedesktop.org/event/2/contributions/78/attachments/90/143/explicit_sync.pdf https://indico.freedesktop.org/event/2/contributions/78/atta... https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/967 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests... https://wayland.app/protocols/linux-explicit-synchronization-unstable-v1 https://wayland.app/protocols/linux-explicit-synchronization...
      - 3y ago
- leipie 3y ago
  As a developer with a Linux laptop (ThinkPads, etc.) since forever, I have been avoiding nVidia like the plague since switcheroo became a thing more than a decade ago. Every time I tried the user experience with (discrete) nVidia cards as a non- single screen gamer has always been a horrible waste of battery. Intel and AMD GPUs getting so much better have been a total blessing. Being able to just connect an external monitor/projector with different scaling without a hassle is very liberating in a professional setting
- mroche 3y ago
  My setup: * 3 monitors * 1x 2560x1440@60Hz * 2x 1920x1200@75Hz * X99 - Broadwell chip * Fedora Workstation 38/39 * GTX 1070 * Driver 545 from RPM Fusion * Currently on 545.29.06 Workloads: * Excessive terminal use * Code authoring (VSCode/Vim) * Web browsing/app usage in Firefox/Google Chrome * Screen sharing and recording (browser/OBS) * Electron apps including Slack, Element, and Discord * Occasional use of Krita^ ^ Krita has a known issue with (X)Wayland, canvas acceleration, and tablet input. I decided to give Wayland on my workstation another go when the 545 series dropped. Hilariously, the main reason being the underlying features added that enabled support for GNOME's Night Light feature. Other than the first day of going through my apps and making sure things worked, I haven't had any real issues. For the work I do, Wayland more than covers my needs. I have gotten a smidgen of cursor glitching after upgrading from the released 545.09.02 NFB driver to the beta-NFB 545.09.06 version. It only happens when GNOME switches to its "loading" cursor, but it's mostly been ironed out by now. I updated the driver as part of the system upgrade from Fedora 38 to 39, so that probably had a hand in causing it.
  - neurostimulant 3y ago
    On my nvidia system (gtx a2000) with an ultra wide monitor and Gnome, Chrome seems to be glitching if I do the following. - open a new Chrome window - snap the new window to fill half the screen by dragging it to either left or right edge of the screen - result: solitaire-like window glitches - if I resize the window a bit before snapping it, it works. I haven't seen this glitch on any other app.
    - mroche 3y ago
      Can't say I've seen that one. I have seen Chrome have some windowing issues, but nothing that would drive me crazy. I've also added "--gtk-version=4" to my launcher to support alternate inputs (e.g. typing booster).
Falmarri 3y ago
I think that's the issue. People use LTS distros running ancient software versions and declare Wayland sucks
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Did you read the article? The author shows many concrete and serious ways that Wayland is not good enough, both in protocol and implementation.
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    I respect their internals discussion, but they had only three user facing issues & I think all of them have been either fully or partially addressed. Screen recording for example has been reasonably well addressed for well over a year, and protocols for it have existed for a while. Also it is again the rules to backhandedly ask "Did you read the article." Please read the guidelines.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Wayland was never going to be fully Xorg compatible. It's not just that it would be a massive effort, but it conflicts with core Wayland concepts relating to isolation and security. If keystroke access and window properties were still a free-for-all like on x11, we'd be back around to building on an imperfect protocol. Distros and desktops can build around those insecure concepts if they want (KDE has options for some of them), but it doesn't make sense to include it as part of the protocol. The discussion is circular, and it ultimately amounts to a lot of dissatisfaction on either side. People should use what they want to use and support what they're capable of supporting. Neither x11 or Wayland are going away, so we need less of the "make Wayland more like x11" and "make x11 more like Wayland" bandwagoning.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > Wayland was never going to be fully Xorg compatible. Maybe not, but the fact that Wayland doesn't support an important use case for me is why, regardless of any benefits Wayland may have over X, I won't be using Wayland. > Neither x11 or Wayland are going away I sure hope this is the case. I don't care if Wayland exists, I worry that it will become the only realistic option.
sprash 3y ago
> multiple monitors You are talking about a very rare niche case where one monitor runs with VRR and the other doesn't. Everything else is handled just fine with X. > screen tearing. "No screen tearing" just means forced vsync which is easily possible on X11 with a configuration switch or by using a compositor. Actually forced vsync is one of the great disadvantages of Wayland because it always comes at the cost of higher latency. > Wayland rocks those two challenges. And it sucks in every other challenge. Most importantly standardization and development. The Wayland API ecosystem is ultra developer unfriendly and complicated and will pose serious harm to the FOSS landscape which thrives on hobbyist and niche applications. It's so bad it wouldn't be far fetched to call it sabotage. (E.g. look at the hello world: https://github.com/emersion/hello-wayland/blob/master/main.c https://github.com/emersion/hello-wayland/blob/master/main.c it's a complete mess)
- onli 3y ago
  To be fair, I actually ran a system recently (Surface Tablet with integrated intel graphics) where the screen tearing on X just wasn't solvable. Neither with settings in the xorg.conf nor with a compositor could I get Youtube videos to not tear on fast movements. If Wayland really would solve that for those machines - while being deactivable where it counts - that would be a big plus even for me.
  - nalllar 3y ago
    Currently you can't turn off vsync on wayland, except some limited cases involving full screen apps with direct scanout that may not even be implemented in your compositor or may not be possible due to missing implementation for async page flips with atomic modesetting. Due to design issues relating to implicit sync with wayland any misbehaving app can cause your entire desktop to drop frames so if you're a multi monitor user expect stutters when the browser you have open in the background was a little too slow. Or worse if an app is badly broken [1] The good news is that all of this is fixable. Windows has forced compositing for most cases and it performs much more consistently. A browser taking a while to render can't hang unrelated windows' composition. Wayland compositors can get there too eventually by moving to explicit sync APIs [2]. For now if you do care about these issues staying on compositorless X is the least bad option. [1]: https://github.com/ascent12/compositor-killer https://github.com/ascent12/compositor-killer [2]: https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2022/06/09/bridging-the-synchronization-gap-on-linux/ https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2022/06/09/brid...

vlovich123 3y ago

Except if you’re an nVidia user which I’m guessing you’re not. Multiple monitors (even single monitor) and graphical glitches and tearing all over the place.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
The latest 545 Nvidia driver is so broken that I had to downgrade back to 535. A huge amount of Linux desktop issues can be traced to Nvidia and their drivers.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Maybe although I haven’t experienced issues that appear to be Nvidia driver issues per se (ie I’ve installed older ones and newer ones and all issues remain). I’m on a desktop 2080 so that may be it. Haven’t noticed anything especially bad with 545. What kinds of issues have you noticed?
- paulmd 3y ago
  There's an example right above you of NVIDIA's explicit-sync patches being rejected because AMD and Intel aren't ready to move on that piece of functionality yet, despite implicit sync resulting in higher latency and a worse experience for users, and being generally agreed to be undesirable and not the direction they want development to go, which is generally agreed to be what NVIDIA has implemented. And this follows the overall hostility over EGLStreams or whatever it was. They're doing the code and releasing the patches, and they largely capitulated on whatever the EGLStreams issue was supposed to be about, they are leading in what everyone involved seems to agree is "the right direction" and the linux community still can't find their way to "yes". At some point you have to start looking at it as not being entirely NVIDIA's fault - "fuck you, NVIDIA" is no longer an expression of how difficult they are to work with, but rather a generalized expression of hostility from the linux community over perceived historical slights etc. Like, if there's some big history of warfare between IBM and the kernel team, are you just going to reject any patch coming from IBM because you don't like the company, even when it's generally agreed that the patch is generally right and going in the consensus direction, just because you don't like the name on the signoff? That seems to be where the linux community is at these days. The whole "fuck you, nvidia!" thing has always been noxious, that's an example of linus's personal toxicity that a certain segment of the linux community has eagerly celebrated. At best it is a thought-terminating cliche that contributes nothing and drags down the debate, and at worst it's given covering-fire for that segment to act out in their own immature, negative ways, to the detriment of the users. It's not a good look, it's just immature, and at this point it's practically expected from the kernel team. Look who's in charge. And it's not just linus, Greg KH seems pretty bad too, from a casual observer every time I see his name come up it's some childish troublemaking like the symbols-relicensing warfare thing. He's personally made my life worse on multiple occasions, breaking shit that is working for reasons I don't really care about. And I know people think it's for a good cause, but at the end of the day users don't really care about that shit. The BSD/Unix community is generally a lot more adult and mature, and tbh avoiding linux hi-jinx is a great reason to go with a macbook these days. It doesn't have to be this way, the personality-driven shit doesn't exist in most other spaces and they are better for it. The Linux kernel team is almost uniquely bad about this, and it's largely due to poor leadership and toxic individuals at the top that then bleeds into these adjacent spaces and venues. The wayland people feel empowered to act out when the head honcho publically tells a major partner to go fuck themselves, and so on. It kinda is what it is - as long as there are children at the helm, there are gonna be issues in linux-land.
mariusor 3y ago
I think it should be a point of pride for the linux developer community that nvidia cards work as well as they do seeing as the company is actually hostile. The only solution for the end user is to vote with their wallets if running linux and/or wayland is important to them. Bringing it as an argument _against_ wayland, however, is missing the point entirely in my opinion.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Well the bug that I’m experiencing is specific to Xwayland and seems to be a bug where the wayland developers are refusing to take Nvidia’s patches to fix the issue. So maybe it is wayland and not the drivers? Nvidia and Google seem to have a decent relationship working together to resolve issues for Linux Chrome Wayland.
  - Vilian 3y ago
    what patches and why?, the other two major gpu company (intel and amd) don't need to send any patch to make their gpu work perfectly on wayland, why nvidia need it?, isn't their fault that their driver system is flawed?
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      Today Xwayland relies on implicitly synchronization. That’s apparently a legacy mechanism. Nvidia wants to add explicit synchronization support which it has as it sounds like the future whereas AMD and Intel aren’t ready for that. Xwayland devs claim the ecosystem isn’t ready and yet if a simple patch fixes the issue for Nvidia and the Xwayland folks agree eventually GPUs will use explicit synchronization, it seems like the Wayland folks are the ones dragging their feet. https://indico.freedesktop.org/event/2/contributions/78/attachments/90/143/explicit_sync.pdf https://indico.freedesktop.org/event/2/contributions/78/atta... https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/967 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests... https://wayland.app/protocols/linux-explicit-synchronization-unstable-v1 https://wayland.app/protocols/linux-explicit-synchronization...
    - 3y ago
leipie 3y ago
As a developer with a Linux laptop (ThinkPads, etc.) since forever, I have been avoiding nVidia like the plague since switcheroo became a thing more than a decade ago. Every time I tried the user experience with (discrete) nVidia cards as a non- single screen gamer has always been a horrible waste of battery. Intel and AMD GPUs getting so much better have been a total blessing. Being able to just connect an external monitor/projector with different scaling without a hassle is very liberating in a professional setting
mroche 3y ago
My setup: * 3 monitors * 1x 2560x1440@60Hz * 2x 1920x1200@75Hz * X99 - Broadwell chip * Fedora Workstation 38/39 * GTX 1070 * Driver 545 from RPM Fusion * Currently on 545.29.06 Workloads: * Excessive terminal use * Code authoring (VSCode/Vim) * Web browsing/app usage in Firefox/Google Chrome * Screen sharing and recording (browser/OBS) * Electron apps including Slack, Element, and Discord * Occasional use of Krita^ ^ Krita has a known issue with (X)Wayland, canvas acceleration, and tablet input. I decided to give Wayland on my workstation another go when the 545 series dropped. Hilariously, the main reason being the underlying features added that enabled support for GNOME's Night Light feature. Other than the first day of going through my apps and making sure things worked, I haven't had any real issues. For the work I do, Wayland more than covers my needs. I have gotten a smidgen of cursor glitching after upgrading from the released 545.09.02 NFB driver to the beta-NFB 545.09.06 version. It only happens when GNOME switches to its "loading" cursor, but it's mostly been ironed out by now. I updated the driver as part of the system upgrade from Fedora 38 to 39, so that probably had a hand in causing it.
- neurostimulant 3y ago
  On my nvidia system (gtx a2000) with an ultra wide monitor and Gnome, Chrome seems to be glitching if I do the following. - open a new Chrome window - snap the new window to fill half the screen by dragging it to either left or right edge of the screen - result: solitaire-like window glitches - if I resize the window a bit before snapping it, it works. I haven't seen this glitch on any other app.
  - mroche 3y ago
    Can't say I've seen that one. I have seen Chrome have some windowing issues, but nothing that would drive me crazy. I've also added "--gtk-version=4" to my launcher to support alternate inputs (e.g. typing booster).

Falmarri 3y ago

I think that's the issue. People use LTS distros running ancient software versions and declare Wayland sucks

mvdtnz 3y ago
Did you read the article? The author shows many concrete and serious ways that Wayland is not good enough, both in protocol and implementation.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  I respect their internals discussion, but they had only three user facing issues & I think all of them have been either fully or partially addressed. Screen recording for example has been reasonably well addressed for well over a year, and protocols for it have existed for a while. Also it is again the rules to backhandedly ask "Did you read the article." Please read the guidelines.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Wayland was never going to be fully Xorg compatible. It's not just that it would be a massive effort, but it conflicts with core Wayland concepts relating to isolation and security. If keystroke access and window properties were still a free-for-all like on x11, we'd be back around to building on an imperfect protocol. Distros and desktops can build around those insecure concepts if they want (KDE has options for some of them), but it doesn't make sense to include it as part of the protocol. The discussion is circular, and it ultimately amounts to a lot of dissatisfaction on either side. People should use what they want to use and support what they're capable of supporting. Neither x11 or Wayland are going away, so we need less of the "make Wayland more like x11" and "make x11 more like Wayland" bandwagoning.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Wayland was never going to be fully Xorg compatible. Maybe not, but the fact that Wayland doesn't support an important use case for me is why, regardless of any benefits Wayland may have over X, I won't be using Wayland. > Neither x11 or Wayland are going away I sure hope this is the case. I don't care if Wayland exists, I worry that it will become the only realistic option.

sprash 3y ago

> multiple monitors You are talking about a very rare niche case where one monitor runs with VRR and the other doesn't. Everything else is handled just fine with X. > screen tearing. "No screen tearing" just means forced vsync which is easily possible on X11 with a configuration switch or by using a compositor. Actually forced vsync is one of the great disadvantages of Wayland because it always comes at the cost of higher latency. > Wayland rocks those two challenges. And it sucks in every other challenge. Most importantly standardization and development. The Wayland API ecosystem is ultra developer unfriendly and complicated and will pose serious harm to the FOSS landscape which thrives on hobbyist and niche applications. It's so bad it wouldn't be far fetched to call it sabotage. (E.g. look at the hello world: https://github.com/emersion/hello-wayland/blob/master/main.c https://github.com/emersion/hello-wayland/blob/master/main.c it's a complete mess)

onli 3y ago
To be fair, I actually ran a system recently (Surface Tablet with integrated intel graphics) where the screen tearing on X just wasn't solvable. Neither with settings in the xorg.conf nor with a compositor could I get Youtube videos to not tear on fast movements. If Wayland really would solve that for those machines - while being deactivable where it counts - that would be a big plus even for me.
- nalllar 3y ago
  Currently you can't turn off vsync on wayland, except some limited cases involving full screen apps with direct scanout that may not even be implemented in your compositor or may not be possible due to missing implementation for async page flips with atomic modesetting. Due to design issues relating to implicit sync with wayland any misbehaving app can cause your entire desktop to drop frames so if you're a multi monitor user expect stutters when the browser you have open in the background was a little too slow. Or worse if an app is badly broken [1] The good news is that all of this is fixable. Windows has forced compositing for most cases and it performs much more consistently. A browser taking a while to render can't hang unrelated windows' composition. Wayland compositors can get there too eventually by moving to explicit sync APIs [2]. For now if you do care about these issues staying on compositorless X is the least bad option. [1]: https://github.com/ascent12/compositor-killer https://github.com/ascent12/compositor-killer [2]: https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2022/06/09/bridging-the-synchronization-gap-on-linux/ https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2022/06/09/brid...