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I want to say it makes complete sense to me. It's well known that museums are seen as unappealing to many demographics and the image of association with elitism

I want to say it makes complete sense to me. It's well known that museums are seen as unappealing to many demographics and the image of association with elitism and colonialism plays a huge role in that. Changing the style choices of museum communications towards ones which are further dissociated from those issues seems like ab obvious first step towrads increasing the perception of inclusivity. I would ask anyone who is labeling it as "insane" what their own background is how European it is before they dismiss efforts to appeal to groups with other histories, and often painful ones as they relate to European history.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
My background is non white child of poor immigrants to the US from a country that used to be ruled by the UK. I just found it unbelievable that anyone would associate a font with “elitism” and “colonialism”. And my family prioritizes going to museums, even in London, where many of my family live even though that is in the country that oppressed them. I have heard elders complain about the proliferation of the English language itself to be a cause for decline in fluency of the native language, but I can almost guarantee no one has ever thought about the influences of a font. I mean there are actual fish to fry here, starting with legislation, monetary consequences, property rights…I do not see how fonts moves the needle at all, except patting oneself on their back.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  > I can almost guarantee no one has ever thought about the influences of a font. Maybe not but we know that they do affect people's perceptions whether they're conscious of it or not. I think it's fantastic that your family was engaged with museums while you were growing up but we also know that there's a demographic divide in engagement across the wider population. In the UK more than half of white families visit museums annually but for black families that's closer to one in three.[0] > I mean there are actual fish to fry here, starting with legislation, monetary consequences, property rights 100% but those issues are beyond the operational scope of an individual museum trying to improve its engagement. 0: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/culture-and-community/culture-and-heritage/adults-visiting-museums-and-galleries/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/culture-a...
- lancesells 3y ago
  Of course fonts and their styling represent a feeling. Serif fonts don't represent elitism and colonialism to me, but maybe to some people they might and some museums might want to get away from that. Some serifed logos feel old and stodgy and sometimes updating those gives everything a fresher feel. A museum representing modern art most certainly wants to feel modern and in sync with the current zeitgeist. Fonts, colors, wording, architecture, etc. all have influences on you, me, and everyone else. They are a form of language and communication and you can both update fonts at the same time as legislation and everything else.
PKop 3y ago
It is insane because this alienates the demographics that appreciate everything you are denouncing here: European history, art, culture, colonialism, civilizational accomplishment etc. Everything that created the very art housed withing the museums. Even if one is not apart of this heritage, this should be respected as the foundation of the art itself.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  > European history, art, culture, colonialism, civilizational accomplishment etc. Everything that created the very art housed withing the museums. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here? Many museums are stuffed with objects taken from around the world, often forecfully. There was such pressure on other cultures to provide objects for Europe that there's even a display in Rotterdam's Wereldmuseum of fascinating objects from the Congo that were made with an intentionally brutal "primitive" aesthetic because that's what the Europeans wanted from them. They even went to the trouble of inventing rotuals associated with these objects. I guess you could argue that those pieces were somehow created through European colonialism, but even then the designs and implementation were all Congolese. I think the people who appreciate colonialism are indeed being denounced very intentionally by more and more of the world's cultural insitutions. It's very much intentional.
loughnane 3y ago
I don’t question the motivation to be welcoming, but a good motivation doesn’t make a good design. The result is denuded and unmoored. It’s as soulless here in Boston as it would be if the aesthetic infected cultural institutions in Tokyo or Addis Ababa. I bet the people in charge meant well, they just did a bad job.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Beauty and soulfulness are very subjective, but I think the way to judge this design is by how successful it was at helping perceptions of inclusivity. I'm not sure if this particular institution publishes data about visitor demographics but I'm sure they have an internal understanding of the value of this change.
  - loughnane 3y ago
    Yeah, if they were very well-managed that have metrics not only for success but also for potential loss. And then an honest qualitative evaluation to see changes—good and bad—in the things that are hard to measure but nonetheless important. I’ve seen very few firms of any sort do that well.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      I'm reading this as they should do nothing because they're incapable of meaningfully assessing the impact? Then I'm sure we're both unqualified to give our views on it too.
carlosjobim 3y ago
> It's well known that museums are seen as unappealing to many demographics... So what? These people don't have to go there. There's a whole bunch of places and things I find unappealing, so I don't seek it out. By destroying culture, you're also robbing people who would appreciate it from an experience. And people who appreciate something can come from all kinds of backgrounds.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Museums can be very inspiring and educational places and can also increase the sense of wellbeing in visitors. Most have it as an aim to bring access to these benefits to a wide range of people. There's also many issues to including contemporary artists from non-traditional background which is a shame for both the creators and people who would potentially enjoy their work. I'm not sure how an institution using a different typeface with the aim of being more inclusive is "destroying culture" to such a degree that it should be a serious consideration when weighed against the benefits. Could you explain further what you meant by that? Of course the people who enjoy these things can come from any type of background but first they have to fell welcome to even experience them. Currently in my native country the research shows that white people are almost twice as likely to visit a museum in the first place compared to black people. I personally find that a real shame because I think everyone can benefit from visitng them.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    Nobody cares about a font, but if you read the thread you'll see that it's also the architecture that is "oppressive" in the eyes of the ideologues. When you're destroying architecture you're destroying culture. The same technocrats who has filled the world with the most depressing brutalist architecture are claiming that some mysterious "others" suffer greatly from the classical looks of museums. > Of course the people who enjoy these things can come from any type of background but first they have to fell welcome to even experience them. And in what way would somebody feel unwelcome by a font? Why is a serif font less welcoming than a sans serif font? When you do the thinking for other people and when you're feeling oppressed on their behalf, maybe you should instead re-evaluate what you're doing. Are you as an enlightened hacker able to appreciate different cultures, expressions, and even typefaces with a cool self-distance, while people who are lesser than you have to be baby-sat by other enlightened individuals that protect them from unfamiliar columns and serifs?

lotsofpulp 3y ago

My background is non white child of poor immigrants to the US from a country that used to be ruled by the UK. I just found it unbelievable that anyone would associate a font with “elitism” and “colonialism”. And my family prioritizes going to museums, even in London, where many of my family live even though that is in the country that oppressed them. I have heard elders complain about the proliferation of the English language itself to be a cause for decline in fluency of the native language, but I can almost guarantee no one has ever thought about the influences of a font. I mean there are actual fish to fry here, starting with legislation, monetary consequences, property rights…I do not see how fonts moves the needle at all, except patting oneself on their back.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
> I can almost guarantee no one has ever thought about the influences of a font. Maybe not but we know that they do affect people's perceptions whether they're conscious of it or not. I think it's fantastic that your family was engaged with museums while you were growing up but we also know that there's a demographic divide in engagement across the wider population. In the UK more than half of white families visit museums annually but for black families that's closer to one in three.[0] > I mean there are actual fish to fry here, starting with legislation, monetary consequences, property rights 100% but those issues are beyond the operational scope of an individual museum trying to improve its engagement. 0: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/culture-and-community/culture-and-heritage/adults-visiting-museums-and-galleries/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/culture-a...
lancesells 3y ago
Of course fonts and their styling represent a feeling. Serif fonts don't represent elitism and colonialism to me, but maybe to some people they might and some museums might want to get away from that. Some serifed logos feel old and stodgy and sometimes updating those gives everything a fresher feel. A museum representing modern art most certainly wants to feel modern and in sync with the current zeitgeist. Fonts, colors, wording, architecture, etc. all have influences on you, me, and everyone else. They are a form of language and communication and you can both update fonts at the same time as legislation and everything else.

PKop 3y ago

It is insane because this alienates the demographics that appreciate everything you are denouncing here: European history, art, culture, colonialism, civilizational accomplishment etc. Everything that created the very art housed withing the museums. Even if one is not apart of this heritage, this should be respected as the foundation of the art itself.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
> European history, art, culture, colonialism, civilizational accomplishment etc. Everything that created the very art housed withing the museums. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here? Many museums are stuffed with objects taken from around the world, often forecfully. There was such pressure on other cultures to provide objects for Europe that there's even a display in Rotterdam's Wereldmuseum of fascinating objects from the Congo that were made with an intentionally brutal "primitive" aesthetic because that's what the Europeans wanted from them. They even went to the trouble of inventing rotuals associated with these objects. I guess you could argue that those pieces were somehow created through European colonialism, but even then the designs and implementation were all Congolese. I think the people who appreciate colonialism are indeed being denounced very intentionally by more and more of the world's cultural insitutions. It's very much intentional.

loughnane 3y ago

I don’t question the motivation to be welcoming, but a good motivation doesn’t make a good design. The result is denuded and unmoored. It’s as soulless here in Boston as it would be if the aesthetic infected cultural institutions in Tokyo or Addis Ababa. I bet the people in charge meant well, they just did a bad job.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
Beauty and soulfulness are very subjective, but I think the way to judge this design is by how successful it was at helping perceptions of inclusivity. I'm not sure if this particular institution publishes data about visitor demographics but I'm sure they have an internal understanding of the value of this change.
- loughnane 3y ago
  Yeah, if they were very well-managed that have metrics not only for success but also for potential loss. And then an honest qualitative evaluation to see changes—good and bad—in the things that are hard to measure but nonetheless important. I’ve seen very few firms of any sort do that well.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    I'm reading this as they should do nothing because they're incapable of meaningfully assessing the impact? Then I'm sure we're both unqualified to give our views on it too.

carlosjobim 3y ago

> It's well known that museums are seen as unappealing to many demographics... So what? These people don't have to go there. There's a whole bunch of places and things I find unappealing, so I don't seek it out. By destroying culture, you're also robbing people who would appreciate it from an experience. And people who appreciate something can come from all kinds of backgrounds.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
Museums can be very inspiring and educational places and can also increase the sense of wellbeing in visitors. Most have it as an aim to bring access to these benefits to a wide range of people. There's also many issues to including contemporary artists from non-traditional background which is a shame for both the creators and people who would potentially enjoy their work. I'm not sure how an institution using a different typeface with the aim of being more inclusive is "destroying culture" to such a degree that it should be a serious consideration when weighed against the benefits. Could you explain further what you meant by that? Of course the people who enjoy these things can come from any type of background but first they have to fell welcome to even experience them. Currently in my native country the research shows that white people are almost twice as likely to visit a museum in the first place compared to black people. I personally find that a real shame because I think everyone can benefit from visitng them.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Nobody cares about a font, but if you read the thread you'll see that it's also the architecture that is "oppressive" in the eyes of the ideologues. When you're destroying architecture you're destroying culture. The same technocrats who has filled the world with the most depressing brutalist architecture are claiming that some mysterious "others" suffer greatly from the classical looks of museums. > Of course the people who enjoy these things can come from any type of background but first they have to fell welcome to even experience them. And in what way would somebody feel unwelcome by a font? Why is a serif font less welcoming than a sans serif font? When you do the thinking for other people and when you're feeling oppressed on their behalf, maybe you should instead re-evaluate what you're doing. Are you as an enlightened hacker able to appreciate different cultures, expressions, and even typefaces with a cool self-distance, while people who are lesser than you have to be baby-sat by other enlightened individuals that protect them from unfamiliar columns and serifs?