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> It's early on the weekend but the question I predict is "What made Nix/Guix unsuitable as a part in this?" I'm not sure I understand: Homebrew is a package m

> It's early on the weekend but the question I predict is "What made Nix/Guix unsuitable as a part in this?" I'm not sure I understand: Homebrew is a package manager in its own right, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for it to retrofit an entire other packaging ecosystem (Nix or Guix) on top of it. (I don't know those ecosystems particularly well, but my understanding is that neither has code signing/build provenance either -- for Nix at least my understanding is that there are no remote builds in the first place, so build provenance isn't relevant.)

password4321 3y ago
Thanks for answering my question; I apologize for not explaining it very well. You are creating CI/CD infrastructure to build binaries for Homebrew. Per my limited understanding, Nix/Guix will someday build reproducible binaries, but it didn't offer value for you here at the end of 2023. The reasons why might help the projects be more useful to those with similar goals in the future.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > You are creating CI/CD infrastructure to build binaries for Homebrew. Not exactly: Homebrew already has extensive, mature infrastructure for building binary distributions (in Homebrew nomenclature, "bottles"). The point of this work is solely to offer cryptographic attestations for those bottles, namely attesting that they're being produced on Homebrew's (GitHub Actions-based) CI/CD. Reproducibility would be nice, but it isn't a requirement for this work. Nix and Guix would possibly help with that, but adding it would be (1) a significant engineering effort, with no clearly defined borders, and (2) would not solve the actual problem at hand. Edit: I realized the above doesn't offer a "why." The "why" for all of this is improved integrity: it adds another hurdle for an attacker looking to download and install malicious bottles through Homebrew. Additionally, it makes it easier to host a verifiable mirror of homebrew-core's bottles.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
tomberek 3y ago
Nix (and by extension Guix) has had remote builds and signed build provenance for nearly 2 decades. It has also had a story to deal with both content-addrrssed and input-addressed (this is our term for the "stable identifier" for a workflow mentioned above). I can understand not using Nix, but please take a look at how we've solved some of these problems, and our mistakes. There is no need to reinvent the wheel blindly. Feel free to reach out if interested.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > Nix (and by extension Guix) has had remote builds and signed build provenance for nearly 2 decades. Where is this documented? When I search for "Nix code signing" I mostly get issue reports for people experiencing breakage due to macOS's (separate) code signing requirements. Edit: To be clear, I like Nix, and I find many of its properties appealing. At the same time, it's not clear to me that Homebrew has too much to glean here: Homebrew isn't trying to be a totalizing package/system state management solution, and has historically leaned heavily on automation and external services (GHA, GHCR, etc.). These are design decisions with tradeoffs; they've also informed the proposed build provenance design substantially.
  - tomberek 3y ago
    There is a naming problem here where "Nix" is often easily confused with the state management pieces (home-manager, NixOS, etc). The underlying Store abstraction provides the concepts of various kinds of addressing. This is independent of the Nix language and we are currently trying to expose each of these layers more directly so it can be re-used in other contexts. The piece that might be of interest to you is the interaction between content-addressed and input-addressed content in light of build systems+software+compilers that are not bit-reproducible. There is also the bookkeeping to ensure auditability by third-parties; anyone else can run the same builds and expect the same outcome, or close enough that the differences become easy to find and report upstream (https://r13y.com/ https://r13y.com/), but the system doesn't require bit-reproducibility from day1 because that would be impractical. Of course substituting from a cache is exact, made possible by the signatures. Remote builds: https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/distributed-builds.html https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/distribu... Signing (i'll amend my claim above to be only 1 decade). These are either signatures of a CA path, or for input-addressed things it can be seen as a claim by the signer that the producing build recipe (we call it "derivation") has this particular binary output. - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/nix-store/generate-binary-cache-key.html https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/nix-store/ge... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/post-build-hook.html?highlight=keys#set-up-a-signing-key https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/post-bui... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.html?highlight=trusted-public-keys#conf-require-sigs https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.ht... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.html?highlight=trusted-public-keys#conf-trusted-public-keys https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.ht... - example: see the Signatures line for an example that this this specific provenance produced this specific binary output: https://trusted-friendly-sesame.glitch.me/view.html?cache_base=https%3A%2F%2Fcache.nixos.org&hash=7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8 https://trusted-friendly-sesame.glitch.me/view.html?cache_ba... or https://cache.nixos.org/7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8.narinfo https://cache.nixos.org/7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8.nar...

password4321 3y ago

Thanks for answering my question; I apologize for not explaining it very well. You are creating CI/CD infrastructure to build binaries for Homebrew. Per my limited understanding, Nix/Guix will someday build reproducible binaries, but it didn't offer value for you here at the end of 2023. The reasons why might help the projects be more useful to those with similar goals in the future.

woodruffw 3y ago
> You are creating CI/CD infrastructure to build binaries for Homebrew. Not exactly: Homebrew already has extensive, mature infrastructure for building binary distributions (in Homebrew nomenclature, "bottles"). The point of this work is solely to offer cryptographic attestations for those bottles, namely attesting that they're being produced on Homebrew's (GitHub Actions-based) CI/CD. Reproducibility would be nice, but it isn't a requirement for this work. Nix and Guix would possibly help with that, but adding it would be (1) a significant engineering effort, with no clearly defined borders, and (2) would not solve the actual problem at hand. Edit: I realized the above doesn't offer a "why." The "why" for all of this is improved integrity: it adds another hurdle for an attacker looking to download and install malicious bottles through Homebrew. Additionally, it makes it easier to host a verifiable mirror of homebrew-core's bottles.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

tomberek 3y ago

Nix (and by extension Guix) has had remote builds and signed build provenance for nearly 2 decades. It has also had a story to deal with both content-addrrssed and input-addressed (this is our term for the "stable identifier" for a workflow mentioned above). I can understand not using Nix, but please take a look at how we've solved some of these problems, and our mistakes. There is no need to reinvent the wheel blindly. Feel free to reach out if interested.

woodruffw 3y ago
> Nix (and by extension Guix) has had remote builds and signed build provenance for nearly 2 decades. Where is this documented? When I search for "Nix code signing" I mostly get issue reports for people experiencing breakage due to macOS's (separate) code signing requirements. Edit: To be clear, I like Nix, and I find many of its properties appealing. At the same time, it's not clear to me that Homebrew has too much to glean here: Homebrew isn't trying to be a totalizing package/system state management solution, and has historically leaned heavily on automation and external services (GHA, GHCR, etc.). These are design decisions with tradeoffs; they've also informed the proposed build provenance design substantially.
- tomberek 3y ago
  There is a naming problem here where "Nix" is often easily confused with the state management pieces (home-manager, NixOS, etc). The underlying Store abstraction provides the concepts of various kinds of addressing. This is independent of the Nix language and we are currently trying to expose each of these layers more directly so it can be re-used in other contexts. The piece that might be of interest to you is the interaction between content-addressed and input-addressed content in light of build systems+software+compilers that are not bit-reproducible. There is also the bookkeeping to ensure auditability by third-parties; anyone else can run the same builds and expect the same outcome, or close enough that the differences become easy to find and report upstream (https://r13y.com/ https://r13y.com/), but the system doesn't require bit-reproducibility from day1 because that would be impractical. Of course substituting from a cache is exact, made possible by the signatures. Remote builds: https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/distributed-builds.html https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/distribu... Signing (i'll amend my claim above to be only 1 decade). These are either signatures of a CA path, or for input-addressed things it can be seen as a claim by the signer that the producing build recipe (we call it "derivation") has this particular binary output. - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/nix-store/generate-binary-cache-key.html https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/nix-store/ge... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/post-build-hook.html?highlight=keys#set-up-a-signing-key https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/advanced-topics/post-bui... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.html?highlight=trusted-public-keys#conf-require-sigs https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.ht... - https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.html?highlight=trusted-public-keys#conf-trusted-public-keys https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/command-ref/conf-file.ht... - example: see the Signatures line for an example that this this specific provenance produced this specific binary output: https://trusted-friendly-sesame.glitch.me/view.html?cache_base=https%3A%2F%2Fcache.nixos.org&hash=7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8 https://trusted-friendly-sesame.glitch.me/view.html?cache_ba... or https://cache.nixos.org/7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8.narinfo https://cache.nixos.org/7ghhnlwla2mddkg7hgqa5v0sr8g5hga8.nar...