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It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to

It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to not do so. This is true for a Swedish company that wants to do business in the US, so why would the opposite be unimaginable? Tesla is not special. They would do fine, and pass whatever costs this incurs on to the consumers, like literally every company.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]
- markus92 3y ago
  How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
  - personomas 3y ago
    Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    That completely ignores the point of my previous comment... We're seeing that this is not just a particular union within a particular company. Tesla is being hounded down from everywhere at once. So this shows that, actually, the 'rules' that Tesla is not following ought to be law. Same result, much less aggravation. But it looks like the Swedes are extremely stubborn: Apparently Tesla definitely cannot do what they are attempting to do but there is also absolutely no need to make it the law... Extra legal expectations of a course of action are what are creating the issue here, IMHO.
jncfhnb 3y ago
“It’s been sustainable for a century” is not a very convincing argument and is kind of the whole point
- bravetraveler 3y ago
  It's sustainable until the union is out of money, supposedly At which point the "problem" deals with itself... no? Either the workers capitulate or Tesla ceases operations Just reading the thread... the sustainability argument seems totally backwards. For those in the "shut up and get to work camp", this seems ideal Tesla has more money and is managed by a person who is physically incapable of abandoning an idea
  - fnordsensei 3y ago
    Sustainable here is with regards to the model as a whole (politicians stay away; unions and companies settle things amongst themselves), and in the economic and political sense, not eg. the environmental sense.
    - bravetraveler 3y ago
      Ah I see, I quite enjoy that model as someone from the US. Someone mentioned familiarity with the industry being key - this is so true We have decisions made by those who are actively not informed, but rather, biased
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  Even if we disregard the history of the labour market in the country, it’s far from the whole point. There are also several other points, some of which I mentioned along with the statement you took issue with.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Every other company seems to be able to deal with it; it’s just Elmo struggling. You can see that Sweden wouldn’t be keen to rearrange society to suit one company that employs a whole 120 people.
3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
Tesla is not special, but letting it build infrastructure and start business there with certain assumptions, which are entirely reasonable (there's no MANDATE in Sweden to unionize workers) and then suddenly IF Metall pulls workers to orchestrate a strike which forces Tesla into losses, is not exactly an honorable practice. Just recently a judge in Sweden itself ruled that withholding license plates from Tesla was 100% illegal. The post is not delivering their mail. This is quite bizarre. And what do you think will employees gain here? They'll be paying union fees, and get a raise equivalent to the unions fees they pay. Tesla's pay in Sweden is not below industry average but ABOVE industry average. Meaning IF Metall didn't improve things at all in all other companies they have unionized. Keep in mind the employees have little say here. They're threatened that if they don't comply, they'll never be able to find another job in this industry, which is largely controlled by IF Metal. So just like Tesla has the choice of "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden" the employees are also told "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden". Let's not pretend like the union are the "good guys" here. Tesla is a big player globally, but locally in Sweden IF Metall are the big player, and they're leveraging this to gain power through any means possible. Europe has given us many good things, but overall there's a reason why businesses here stagnate and there's no growth. A huge union abuses power the same like a huge corporation abuses power. There's no distinction here. The problem is the size. You don't want players to be too small (i.e. individual workers negotiating with a gigantic corporation) but you also don't want all corporations negotiating with one monopolistic "my way or the highway" union. When either side in this transaction feels like they HAVE NO CHOICE, whether employee or employer, then the model is broken. --- And also you may consider my perspective to be tinted by Tesla and Elon Musk fandom, despite my best attempt to express myself neutrally. But I actually cheered for IF Metal when I heard about this story initially, as I know Musk has been treating his employees like disposable resources in both Tesla and SpaceX at times. He's not a good manager. And I am no fan of his ventures. But looking closer at IF Metall, I've changed my mind on the Sweden situation specifically.
- personomas 3y ago
  This is a really fantastic summary. Thank you.

personomas 3y ago

[flagged]

markus92 3y ago
How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
- personomas 3y ago
  Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.

fnordsensei 3y ago
Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  That completely ignores the point of my previous comment... We're seeing that this is not just a particular union within a particular company. Tesla is being hounded down from everywhere at once. So this shows that, actually, the 'rules' that Tesla is not following ought to be law. Same result, much less aggravation. But it looks like the Swedes are extremely stubborn: Apparently Tesla definitely cannot do what they are attempting to do but there is also absolutely no need to make it the law... Extra legal expectations of a course of action are what are creating the issue here, IMHO.

jncfhnb 3y ago

“It’s been sustainable for a century” is not a very convincing argument and is kind of the whole point

bravetraveler 3y ago
It's sustainable until the union is out of money, supposedly At which point the "problem" deals with itself... no? Either the workers capitulate or Tesla ceases operations Just reading the thread... the sustainability argument seems totally backwards. For those in the "shut up and get to work camp", this seems ideal Tesla has more money and is managed by a person who is physically incapable of abandoning an idea
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  Sustainable here is with regards to the model as a whole (politicians stay away; unions and companies settle things amongst themselves), and in the economic and political sense, not eg. the environmental sense.
  - bravetraveler 3y ago
    Ah I see, I quite enjoy that model as someone from the US. Someone mentioned familiarity with the industry being key - this is so true We have decisions made by those who are actively not informed, but rather, biased
fnordsensei 3y ago
Even if we disregard the history of the labour market in the country, it’s far from the whole point. There are also several other points, some of which I mentioned along with the statement you took issue with.
rsynnott 3y ago
Every other company seems to be able to deal with it; it’s just Elmo struggling. You can see that Sweden wouldn’t be keen to rearrange society to suit one company that employs a whole 120 people.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago

Tesla is not special, but letting it build infrastructure and start business there with certain assumptions, which are entirely reasonable (there's no MANDATE in Sweden to unionize workers) and then suddenly IF Metall pulls workers to orchestrate a strike which forces Tesla into losses, is not exactly an honorable practice. Just recently a judge in Sweden itself ruled that withholding license plates from Tesla was 100% illegal. The post is not delivering their mail. This is quite bizarre. And what do you think will employees gain here? They'll be paying union fees, and get a raise equivalent to the unions fees they pay. Tesla's pay in Sweden is not below industry average but ABOVE industry average. Meaning IF Metall didn't improve things at all in all other companies they have unionized. Keep in mind the employees have little say here. They're threatened that if they don't comply, they'll never be able to find another job in this industry, which is largely controlled by IF Metal. So just like Tesla has the choice of "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden" the employees are also told "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden". Let's not pretend like the union are the "good guys" here. Tesla is a big player globally, but locally in Sweden IF Metall are the big player, and they're leveraging this to gain power through any means possible. Europe has given us many good things, but overall there's a reason why businesses here stagnate and there's no growth. A huge union abuses power the same like a huge corporation abuses power. There's no distinction here. The problem is the size. You don't want players to be too small (i.e. individual workers negotiating with a gigantic corporation) but you also don't want all corporations negotiating with one monopolistic "my way or the highway" union. When either side in this transaction feels like they HAVE NO CHOICE, whether employee or employer, then the model is broken. --- And also you may consider my perspective to be tinted by Tesla and Elon Musk fandom, despite my best attempt to express myself neutrally. But I actually cheered for IF Metal when I heard about this story initially, as I know Musk has been treating his employees like disposable resources in both Tesla and SpaceX at times. He's not a good manager. And I am no fan of his ventures. But looking closer at IF Metall, I've changed my mind on the Sweden situation specifically.

personomas 3y ago
This is a really fantastic summary. Thank you.