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> A month into its strike, IF Metall is firmly dug in for the long haul. Striking workers are being fully compensated for lost pay. This idea of striking for e

> A month into its strike, IF Metall is firmly dug in for the long haul. Striking workers are being fully compensated for lost pay. This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Europe is brutal to businesses. It's no wonder the economies here stagnate and there is no growth anymore. This isn't sustainable nor is it good. We can't treat businesses like they're expendable. As if one fails, it's ok, the next will grow in its place. These are not sustainable ideas - it causes huge waste and destruction and then oversea's companies (from China, India, etc) grow in their place. People don't want to start companies in Europe (the numbers are seriously decreasing) because they're hardly profitable anymore (because of taxes) and then its just endless fighting with employees and from above through bureaucracy. Employees want to get paid without having to contribute in a meaningful way. Governments get elected on the promises of protecting employees. Governments in Europe treats businesses like they're filthy rich snobs who desired to be punished. Laws are brutal tough. Business auditors and tax auditors are extremely tough and unfair. This isn't sustainable, nor is it good.

jakupovic 3y ago
[flagged]
fnordsensei 3y ago
It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to not do so. This is true for a Swedish company that wants to do business in the US, so why would the opposite be unimaginable? Tesla is not special. They would do fine, and pass whatever costs this incurs on to the consumers, like literally every company.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - markus92 3y ago
    How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
    - personomas 3y ago
      Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.
  - fnordsensei 3y ago
    Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      That completely ignores the point of my previous comment... We're seeing that this is not just a particular union within a particular company. Tesla is being hounded down from everywhere at once. So this shows that, actually, the 'rules' that Tesla is not following ought to be law. Same result, much less aggravation. But it looks like the Swedes are extremely stubborn: Apparently Tesla definitely cannot do what they are attempting to do but there is also absolutely no need to make it the law... Extra legal expectations of a course of action are what are creating the issue here, IMHO.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  “It’s been sustainable for a century” is not a very convincing argument and is kind of the whole point
  - bravetraveler 3y ago
    It's sustainable until the union is out of money, supposedly At which point the "problem" deals with itself... no? Either the workers capitulate or Tesla ceases operations Just reading the thread... the sustainability argument seems totally backwards. For those in the "shut up and get to work camp", this seems ideal Tesla has more money and is managed by a person who is physically incapable of abandoning an idea
    - fnordsensei 3y ago
      Sustainable here is with regards to the model as a whole (politicians stay away; unions and companies settle things amongst themselves), and in the economic and political sense, not eg. the environmental sense.
      - bravetraveler 3y ago
        Ah I see, I quite enjoy that model as someone from the US. Someone mentioned familiarity with the industry being key - this is so true We have decisions made by those who are actively not informed, but rather, biased
  - fnordsensei 3y ago
    Even if we disregard the history of the labour market in the country, it’s far from the whole point. There are also several other points, some of which I mentioned along with the statement you took issue with.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Every other company seems to be able to deal with it; it’s just Elmo struggling. You can see that Sweden wouldn’t be keen to rearrange society to suit one company that employs a whole 120 people.
- 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
  Tesla is not special, but letting it build infrastructure and start business there with certain assumptions, which are entirely reasonable (there's no MANDATE in Sweden to unionize workers) and then suddenly IF Metall pulls workers to orchestrate a strike which forces Tesla into losses, is not exactly an honorable practice. Just recently a judge in Sweden itself ruled that withholding license plates from Tesla was 100% illegal. The post is not delivering their mail. This is quite bizarre. And what do you think will employees gain here? They'll be paying union fees, and get a raise equivalent to the unions fees they pay. Tesla's pay in Sweden is not below industry average but ABOVE industry average. Meaning IF Metall didn't improve things at all in all other companies they have unionized. Keep in mind the employees have little say here. They're threatened that if they don't comply, they'll never be able to find another job in this industry, which is largely controlled by IF Metal. So just like Tesla has the choice of "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden" the employees are also told "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden". Let's not pretend like the union are the "good guys" here. Tesla is a big player globally, but locally in Sweden IF Metall are the big player, and they're leveraging this to gain power through any means possible. Europe has given us many good things, but overall there's a reason why businesses here stagnate and there's no growth. A huge union abuses power the same like a huge corporation abuses power. There's no distinction here. The problem is the size. You don't want players to be too small (i.e. individual workers negotiating with a gigantic corporation) but you also don't want all corporations negotiating with one monopolistic "my way or the highway" union. When either side in this transaction feels like they HAVE NO CHOICE, whether employee or employer, then the model is broken. --- And also you may consider my perspective to be tinted by Tesla and Elon Musk fandom, despite my best attempt to express myself neutrally. But I actually cheered for IF Metal when I heard about this story initially, as I know Musk has been treating his employees like disposable resources in both Tesla and SpaceX at times. He's not a good manager. And I am no fan of his ventures. But looking closer at IF Metall, I've changed my mind on the Sweden situation specifically.
  - personomas 3y ago
    This is a really fantastic summary. Thank you.
fxtentacle 3y ago
> Europe is brutal to businesses. Almost: Europe is brutal to businesses who don't play by the rules. But so is the US. Or China. Or almost every place that isn't so poor that they simply cannot afford to stand up for their rights anymore.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
petre 3y ago
In Sweeden they should submit to Sweedish rules and conventions of doing business or externalize their services to contractors and move elsewhere.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
- groone 3y ago
  Every Tesla employee is a share holder. What if this model is better?
  - martin8412 3y ago
    No, they're not. They have the option to buy stock at a discounted price.
    - alemanek 3y ago
      Not sure about Sweden but in the US Tesla does RSU grants in addition to the standard ESPP plans as well
  - moogly 3y ago
    The stock benefit could be written down in the collective bargaining agreement, or it could still be offered on top of it. Nothing prevents this. The whole "we offer better compensation than an agreement with the unions would" is always a lie that these companies tell. Klarna did the same. They've now signed a collective bargaining agreement and in 6 months they've forgotten this was ever an issue that they fought over, tooth and nail.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
This is an attempt to import American work culture into European culture. Walmart tried it in Germany and it was a spectacular failure. Amazon tried it and they ended up subcontracting European company instead. Tesla is now trying it in Sweden and what a surprise, it does not work either.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
- junofan 3y ago
  I dunno, reading to the end the union rep guy sounds a little nervous. Are any Tesla workers on strike? What if people like Tesla’s benefits more than the union’s? Didn’t a lot of Tesla workers do well with equity compensation?
dun44 3y ago
Except businesses are - or should be - expendable. They are just managerial structures built on top of actually useful resources like people. Businesses only use those resources; they don’t create them.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Obviously striking workers are not paid by their employer. However, large, cross-companies unions have the resources to compensate striking workers at one company. I believe that this practice exists in the US as well.
- personomas 3y ago
  And where do these unions get their money from?
  - Loic 3y ago
    In Germany you give 1% of your salary to the union if you belong to one.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Union dues
  - peterpost2 3y ago
    In sweden being an Union member is not free, dues are about ~220kr per month(20 euros) depending on your salary(this is what it used to be for unionen not sure about other ones, but probably similar). It's fairly common to be a member of a union since it also has some nice advantages and swedes like unions. You can imagine the strike-warchest get nicely filled this way :) .
morsch 3y ago
> This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Just to be clear: they're getting paid, because they and their colleagues saved up for it. It's not that their employer or the public at large is paying for it.
- personomas 3y ago
  Can you show me a link to this? I don't believe that.
  - dudul 3y ago
    That's how striking works though. When you join a union you pay a recurring fee, the money is used to pay workers when they strike. Why is it hard to believe?
    - personomas 3y ago
      Ok, perhaps it's true. But in Germany, almost all social programs or union-type programs are funded somehow through taxes. Perhaps though Unions are different.
      - morsch 3y ago
        I don't know what "social programs or union-type programs" are, but the compensation people get while striking works exactly the same way in Germany: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld
      - t0mas88 3y ago
        Social programs and "union-type programs" are not the same thing. You're comparing government provided social security / healthcare with a union while the two are completely different. Strikes are paid for by the union, not the employer.
        personomas 3y ago

jakupovic 3y ago

[flagged]

fnordsensei 3y ago

It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to not do so. This is true for a Swedish company that wants to do business in the US, so why would the opposite be unimaginable? Tesla is not special. They would do fine, and pass whatever costs this incurs on to the consumers, like literally every company.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]
- markus92 3y ago
  How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
  - personomas 3y ago
    Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    That completely ignores the point of my previous comment... We're seeing that this is not just a particular union within a particular company. Tesla is being hounded down from everywhere at once. So this shows that, actually, the 'rules' that Tesla is not following ought to be law. Same result, much less aggravation. But it looks like the Swedes are extremely stubborn: Apparently Tesla definitely cannot do what they are attempting to do but there is also absolutely no need to make it the law... Extra legal expectations of a course of action are what are creating the issue here, IMHO.
jncfhnb 3y ago
“It’s been sustainable for a century” is not a very convincing argument and is kind of the whole point
- bravetraveler 3y ago
  It's sustainable until the union is out of money, supposedly At which point the "problem" deals with itself... no? Either the workers capitulate or Tesla ceases operations Just reading the thread... the sustainability argument seems totally backwards. For those in the "shut up and get to work camp", this seems ideal Tesla has more money and is managed by a person who is physically incapable of abandoning an idea
  - fnordsensei 3y ago
    Sustainable here is with regards to the model as a whole (politicians stay away; unions and companies settle things amongst themselves), and in the economic and political sense, not eg. the environmental sense.
    - bravetraveler 3y ago
      Ah I see, I quite enjoy that model as someone from the US. Someone mentioned familiarity with the industry being key - this is so true We have decisions made by those who are actively not informed, but rather, biased
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  Even if we disregard the history of the labour market in the country, it’s far from the whole point. There are also several other points, some of which I mentioned along with the statement you took issue with.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Every other company seems to be able to deal with it; it’s just Elmo struggling. You can see that Sweden wouldn’t be keen to rearrange society to suit one company that employs a whole 120 people.
3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
Tesla is not special, but letting it build infrastructure and start business there with certain assumptions, which are entirely reasonable (there's no MANDATE in Sweden to unionize workers) and then suddenly IF Metall pulls workers to orchestrate a strike which forces Tesla into losses, is not exactly an honorable practice. Just recently a judge in Sweden itself ruled that withholding license plates from Tesla was 100% illegal. The post is not delivering their mail. This is quite bizarre. And what do you think will employees gain here? They'll be paying union fees, and get a raise equivalent to the unions fees they pay. Tesla's pay in Sweden is not below industry average but ABOVE industry average. Meaning IF Metall didn't improve things at all in all other companies they have unionized. Keep in mind the employees have little say here. They're threatened that if they don't comply, they'll never be able to find another job in this industry, which is largely controlled by IF Metal. So just like Tesla has the choice of "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden" the employees are also told "do business with IF Metall or leave Sweden". Let's not pretend like the union are the "good guys" here. Tesla is a big player globally, but locally in Sweden IF Metall are the big player, and they're leveraging this to gain power through any means possible. Europe has given us many good things, but overall there's a reason why businesses here stagnate and there's no growth. A huge union abuses power the same like a huge corporation abuses power. There's no distinction here. The problem is the size. You don't want players to be too small (i.e. individual workers negotiating with a gigantic corporation) but you also don't want all corporations negotiating with one monopolistic "my way or the highway" union. When either side in this transaction feels like they HAVE NO CHOICE, whether employee or employer, then the model is broken. --- And also you may consider my perspective to be tinted by Tesla and Elon Musk fandom, despite my best attempt to express myself neutrally. But I actually cheered for IF Metal when I heard about this story initially, as I know Musk has been treating his employees like disposable resources in both Tesla and SpaceX at times. He's not a good manager. And I am no fan of his ventures. But looking closer at IF Metall, I've changed my mind on the Sweden situation specifically.
- personomas 3y ago
  This is a really fantastic summary. Thank you.

fxtentacle 3y ago

> Europe is brutal to businesses. Almost: Europe is brutal to businesses who don't play by the rules. But so is the US. Or China. Or almost every place that isn't so poor that they simply cannot afford to stand up for their rights anymore.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]

petre 3y ago

In Sweeden they should submit to Sweedish rules and conventions of doing business or externalize their services to contractors and move elsewhere.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]
groone 3y ago
Every Tesla employee is a share holder. What if this model is better?
- martin8412 3y ago
  No, they're not. They have the option to buy stock at a discounted price.
  - alemanek 3y ago
    Not sure about Sweden but in the US Tesla does RSU grants in addition to the standard ESPP plans as well
- moogly 3y ago
  The stock benefit could be written down in the collective bargaining agreement, or it could still be offered on top of it. Nothing prevents this. The whole "we offer better compensation than an agreement with the unions would" is always a lie that these companies tell. Klarna did the same. They've now signed a collective bargaining agreement and in 6 months they've forgotten this was ever an issue that they fought over, tooth and nail.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

This is an attempt to import American work culture into European culture. Walmart tried it in Germany and it was a spectacular failure. Amazon tried it and they ended up subcontracting European company instead. Tesla is now trying it in Sweden and what a surprise, it does not work either.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]
junofan 3y ago
I dunno, reading to the end the union rep guy sounds a little nervous. Are any Tesla workers on strike? What if people like Tesla’s benefits more than the union’s? Didn’t a lot of Tesla workers do well with equity compensation?

dun44 3y ago

Except businesses are - or should be - expendable. They are just managerial structures built on top of actually useful resources like people. Businesses only use those resources; they don’t create them.

personomas 3y ago
[flagged]

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Obviously striking workers are not paid by their employer. However, large, cross-companies unions have the resources to compensate striking workers at one company. I believe that this practice exists in the US as well.

personomas 3y ago
And where do these unions get their money from?
- Loic 3y ago
  In Germany you give 1% of your salary to the union if you belong to one.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Union dues
- peterpost2 3y ago
  In sweden being an Union member is not free, dues are about ~220kr per month(20 euros) depending on your salary(this is what it used to be for unionen not sure about other ones, but probably similar). It's fairly common to be a member of a union since it also has some nice advantages and swedes like unions. You can imagine the strike-warchest get nicely filled this way :) .

morsch 3y ago

> This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Just to be clear: they're getting paid, because they and their colleagues saved up for it. It's not that their employer or the public at large is paying for it.

personomas 3y ago
Can you show me a link to this? I don't believe that.
- dudul 3y ago
  That's how striking works though. When you join a union you pay a recurring fee, the money is used to pay workers when they strike. Why is it hard to believe?
  - personomas 3y ago
    Ok, perhaps it's true. But in Germany, almost all social programs or union-type programs are funded somehow through taxes. Perhaps though Unions are different.
    - morsch 3y ago
      I don't know what "social programs or union-type programs" are, but the compensation people get while striking works exactly the same way in Germany: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld
    - t0mas88 3y ago
      Social programs and "union-type programs" are not the same thing. You're comparing government provided social security / healthcare with a union while the two are completely different. Strikes are paid for by the union, not the employer.
      - personomas 3y ago