7 ms·

‘We can’t let Tesla get away with this’: why Swedish unions are fighting Musk

56 points by annabyrd 3y ago

klyrs 3y ago
> “I just don’t like anything which creates a lords and peasants kind of thing.” ~ literally the richest guy in the world
- bravetraveler 3y ago
  That was shortly before making verification a paid endeavor, right?
personomas 3y ago
> A month into its strike, IF Metall is firmly dug in for the long haul. Striking workers are being fully compensated for lost pay. This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Europe is brutal to businesses. It's no wonder the economies here stagnate and there is no growth anymore. This isn't sustainable nor is it good. We can't treat businesses like they're expendable. As if one fails, it's ok, the next will grow in its place. These are not sustainable ideas - it causes huge waste and destruction and then oversea's companies (from China, India, etc) grow in their place. People don't want to start companies in Europe (the numbers are seriously decreasing) because they're hardly profitable anymore (because of taxes) and then its just endless fighting with employees and from above through bureaucracy. Employees want to get paid without having to contribute in a meaningful way. Governments get elected on the promises of protecting employees. Governments in Europe treats businesses like they're filthy rich snobs who desired to be punished. Laws are brutal tough. Business auditors and tax auditors are extremely tough and unfair. This isn't sustainable, nor is it good.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  [flagged]
- fnordsensei 3y ago
  It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to not do so. This is true for a Swedish company that wants to do business in the US, so why would the opposite be unimaginable? Tesla is not special. They would do fine, and pass whatever costs this incurs on to the consumers, like literally every company.
  - personomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - markus92 3y ago
      How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
      - personomas 3y ago
        Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.
    - fnordsensei 3y ago
      Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  > Europe is brutal to businesses. Almost: Europe is brutal to businesses who don't play by the rules. But so is the US. Or China. Or almost every place that isn't so poor that they simply cannot afford to stand up for their rights anymore.
  - personomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
- petre 3y ago
  In Sweeden they should submit to Sweedish rules and conventions of doing business or externalize their services to contractors and move elsewhere.
  - personomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - groone 3y ago
    Every Tesla employee is a share holder. What if this model is better?
    - martin8412 3y ago
      No, they're not. They have the option to buy stock at a discounted price.
      - alemanek 3y ago
        Not sure about Sweden but in the US Tesla does RSU grants in addition to the standard ESPP plans as well
    - moogly 3y ago
      The stock benefit could be written down in the collective bargaining agreement, or it could still be offered on top of it. Nothing prevents this. The whole "we offer better compensation than an agreement with the unions would" is always a lie that these companies tell. Klarna did the same. They've now signed a collective bargaining agreement and in 6 months they've forgotten this was ever an issue that they fought over, tooth and nail.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  This is an attempt to import American work culture into European culture. Walmart tried it in Germany and it was a spectacular failure. Amazon tried it and they ended up subcontracting European company instead. Tesla is now trying it in Sweden and what a surprise, it does not work either.
  - personomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - junofan 3y ago
    I dunno, reading to the end the union rep guy sounds a little nervous. Are any Tesla workers on strike? What if people like Tesla’s benefits more than the union’s? Didn’t a lot of Tesla workers do well with equity compensation?
- dun44 3y ago
  Except businesses are - or should be - expendable. They are just managerial structures built on top of actually useful resources like people. Businesses only use those resources; they don’t create them.
  - personomas 3y ago
    [flagged]
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Obviously striking workers are not paid by their employer. However, large, cross-companies unions have the resources to compensate striking workers at one company. I believe that this practice exists in the US as well.
  - personomas 3y ago
    And where do these unions get their money from?
    - Loic 3y ago
      In Germany you give 1% of your salary to the union if you belong to one.
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      Union dues
    - peterpost2 3y ago
      In sweden being an Union member is not free, dues are about ~220kr per month(20 euros) depending on your salary(this is what it used to be for unionen not sure about other ones, but probably similar). It's fairly common to be a member of a union since it also has some nice advantages and swedes like unions. You can imagine the strike-warchest get nicely filled this way :) .
- morsch 3y ago
  > This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Just to be clear: they're getting paid, because they and their colleagues saved up for it. It's not that their employer or the public at large is paying for it.
  - personomas 3y ago
    Can you show me a link to this? I don't believe that.
    - dudul 3y ago
      That's how striking works though. When you join a union you pay a recurring fee, the money is used to pay workers when they strike. Why is it hard to believe?
      - personomas 3y ago
        Ok, perhaps it's true. But in Germany, almost all social programs or union-type programs are funded somehow through taxes. Perhaps though Unions are different.
        morsch 3y ago
        I don't know what "social programs or union-type programs" are, but the compensation people get while striking works exactly the same way in Germany: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld
        t0mas88 3y ago
        Social programs and "union-type programs" are not the same thing. You're comparing government provided social security / healthcare with a union while the two are completely different. Strikes are paid for by the union, not the employer.
        personomas 3y ago
danielfoster 3y ago
Sweden has a population of 10 million. Only 120 workers are covered. Tesla is not prioritizing resources well by fighting this battle. They should subcontract these jobs like Amazon does, encourage Tesla owners to go to Denmark for service, or simply build cars that require less service.
- dangus 3y ago
  The article says that the unions want Tesla to sign on to a collective agreement. Tesla could just do that and give workers their place at the table. That would end the strikes. It’s so simple. But if they want to do some convoluted things like you have described to avoid being a part of the social contract, at some point they deserve to suffer from it. There are no products without the workers who labor to make them, transport them, service them. Capital cannot will them into existence. Workers deserve representation.
annabyrd 3y ago
The contrast in the speed and level of disruption between SE (120 workers) and the DE (workforce of 11,000) is super interesting. Power of public policy, compliance and network effect wrapped up in an IRL use case.

56 points by annabyrd 3y ago

> “I just don’t like anything which creates a lords and peasants kind of thing.” ~ literally the richest guy in the world

bravetraveler 3y ago
That was shortly before making verification a paid endeavor, right?

personomas 3y ago

> A month into its strike, IF Metall is firmly dug in for the long haul. Striking workers are being fully compensated for lost pay. This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Europe is brutal to businesses. It's no wonder the economies here stagnate and there is no growth anymore. This isn't sustainable nor is it good. We can't treat businesses like they're expendable. As if one fails, it's ok, the next will grow in its place. These are not sustainable ideas - it causes huge waste and destruction and then oversea's companies (from China, India, etc) grow in their place. People don't want to start companies in Europe (the numbers are seriously decreasing) because they're hardly profitable anymore (because of taxes) and then its just endless fighting with employees and from above through bureaucracy. Employees want to get paid without having to contribute in a meaningful way. Governments get elected on the promises of protecting employees. Governments in Europe treats businesses like they're filthy rich snobs who desired to be punished. Laws are brutal tough. Business auditors and tax auditors are extremely tough and unfair. This isn't sustainable, nor is it good.

jakupovic 3y ago
[flagged]
fnordsensei 3y ago
It’s been sustainable for Sweden for a century. Tesla needs to adapt to the Swedish model if they want to do business in Sweden, and otherwise they are free to not do so. This is true for a Swedish company that wants to do business in the US, so why would the opposite be unimaginable? Tesla is not special. They would do fine, and pass whatever costs this incurs on to the consumers, like literally every company.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - markus92 3y ago
    How does this have anything to do with the Swedish model of a labor market in which collective agreements are a hallmark?
    - personomas 3y ago
      Read the post up above by @3cats-in-a-coat
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Sustainable, maybe, but this feels that it is time to put things into law. Clearly what's happening with Tesla shows that some things which are not legal obligations are still in fact compulsory or you simply can't do business in Sweden. IMHO it would clarify things and avoid conflicts like the one we're seeing to have the coherence to make what's de facto compulsory into law.
  - fnordsensei 3y ago
    Sweden's stance has been that there’s no reason to believe that politicians will do a better job than the parties involved that have an actual stake in the particular situation. A union that operates lucidly will optimize for the longevity of the company as well as for the workers, since the health of one is deeply tied to the health of the other. Theoretically, the particular union and company can take into consideration particulars that a politician can’t, since when codifying in law, the perspective is much more general. I guess we’ll see if it holds up, but IMO the Swedish model is at least not obviously worse than the “utopian” alternatives of fully centrally controlled, and fully unregulated.
fxtentacle 3y ago
> Europe is brutal to businesses. Almost: Europe is brutal to businesses who don't play by the rules. But so is the US. Or China. Or almost every place that isn't so poor that they simply cannot afford to stand up for their rights anymore.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
petre 3y ago
In Sweeden they should submit to Sweedish rules and conventions of doing business or externalize their services to contractors and move elsewhere.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
- groone 3y ago
  Every Tesla employee is a share holder. What if this model is better?
  - martin8412 3y ago
    No, they're not. They have the option to buy stock at a discounted price.
    - alemanek 3y ago
      Not sure about Sweden but in the US Tesla does RSU grants in addition to the standard ESPP plans as well
  - moogly 3y ago
    The stock benefit could be written down in the collective bargaining agreement, or it could still be offered on top of it. Nothing prevents this. The whole "we offer better compensation than an agreement with the unions would" is always a lie that these companies tell. Klarna did the same. They've now signed a collective bargaining agreement and in 6 months they've forgotten this was ever an issue that they fought over, tooth and nail.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
This is an attempt to import American work culture into European culture. Walmart tried it in Germany and it was a spectacular failure. Amazon tried it and they ended up subcontracting European company instead. Tesla is now trying it in Sweden and what a surprise, it does not work either.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
- junofan 3y ago
  I dunno, reading to the end the union rep guy sounds a little nervous. Are any Tesla workers on strike? What if people like Tesla’s benefits more than the union’s? Didn’t a lot of Tesla workers do well with equity compensation?
dun44 3y ago
Except businesses are - or should be - expendable. They are just managerial structures built on top of actually useful resources like people. Businesses only use those resources; they don’t create them.
- personomas 3y ago
  [flagged]
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Obviously striking workers are not paid by their employer. However, large, cross-companies unions have the resources to compensate striking workers at one company. I believe that this practice exists in the US as well.
- personomas 3y ago
  And where do these unions get their money from?
  - Loic 3y ago
    In Germany you give 1% of your salary to the union if you belong to one.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Union dues
  - peterpost2 3y ago
    In sweden being an Union member is not free, dues are about ~220kr per month(20 euros) depending on your salary(this is what it used to be for unionen not sure about other ones, but probably similar). It's fairly common to be a member of a union since it also has some nice advantages and swedes like unions. You can imagine the strike-warchest get nicely filled this way :) .
morsch 3y ago
> This idea of striking for ever and getting paid for striking is insanity. Just to be clear: they're getting paid, because they and their colleagues saved up for it. It's not that their employer or the public at large is paying for it.
- personomas 3y ago
  Can you show me a link to this? I don't believe that.
  - dudul 3y ago
    That's how striking works though. When you join a union you pay a recurring fee, the money is used to pay workers when they strike. Why is it hard to believe?
    - personomas 3y ago
      Ok, perhaps it's true. But in Germany, almost all social programs or union-type programs are funded somehow through taxes. Perhaps though Unions are different.
      - morsch 3y ago
        I don't know what "social programs or union-type programs" are, but the compensation people get while striking works exactly the same way in Germany: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streikgeld
      - t0mas88 3y ago
        Social programs and "union-type programs" are not the same thing. You're comparing government provided social security / healthcare with a union while the two are completely different. Strikes are paid for by the union, not the employer.
        personomas 3y ago

danielfoster 3y ago

Sweden has a population of 10 million. Only 120 workers are covered. Tesla is not prioritizing resources well by fighting this battle. They should subcontract these jobs like Amazon does, encourage Tesla owners to go to Denmark for service, or simply build cars that require less service.

dangus 3y ago
The article says that the unions want Tesla to sign on to a collective agreement. Tesla could just do that and give workers their place at the table. That would end the strikes. It’s so simple. But if they want to do some convoluted things like you have described to avoid being a part of the social contract, at some point they deserve to suffer from it. There are no products without the workers who labor to make them, transport them, service them. Capital cannot will them into existence. Workers deserve representation.

annabyrd 3y ago

The contrast in the speed and level of disruption between SE (120 workers) and the DE (workforce of 11,000) is super interesting. Power of public policy, compliance and network effect wrapped up in an IRL use case.