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Hm, I disagree. DRM is a very modern concept. We originally made electronic solutions to mechanical problems because electronics allows for much more complex a

Hm, I disagree. DRM is a very modern concept. We originally made electronic solutions to mechanical problems because electronics allows for much more complex and nuanced response to input conditions, as well as the physical advantages of size and complexity. Some systems are better as simple mechanical devices, but I'd put that number at a very, very low percentage. Take your washer, dryer, dishwasher, or oven. These things can be purely mechanical, and are generally incredibly reliable when they are mechanical. In modern times, we've computerized these things for very dubious reasons mainly down to user tracking and enforced obsolescence. But adding network connectivity can be genuinely useful. Get a notification when your laundry or dishes are done. Automatically turn off the oven if you forget to when you leave the house. Track the runtime of your dishwasher and get notified when you need to clean the filter. People would use features like that if it were possible to do so without a proprietary app that barely works, but demands your email and phone number and access to your microphone and camera. Or mandatory firmware updates that slowly degrade performance until you buy a new one. The number of problems that can be solved mechanically and for which electronics cannot provide any extra value for the user is almost certainly very close to zero.

nudgeee 3y ago
Just to add to your first point, many washers feature digital control of motors at the very low level, especially for BLDC motor types. This can reduce noise, increase efficiency and longevity of a motor. This requires electronics and software for precise timing control.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  Eh, I think that's a different thing. The line between machine and electronics is pretty blurry when you get down to it. Is an LED attached to a mechanical switch electronics? What if the switch controls a transistor that switches the light? A relay? A CPU? What if it's an incandescent bulb on a mechanical timer? The distinction isn't super clear, and a lot of electronic circuits are much less complex and more reliable than a mechanical replacement. Is that good or bad? I think the discussion here is less about "uses any electricity at all" and more "uses internet connected DRM to be actively shitty"
  - nudgeee 3y ago
    Indeed, I get the gist of the message, however I’m just highlighting how much advanced electronics and software drive something as ‘mundane’ as a washing machine motor to improve its efficiency [0]. This often requires real-time software calculation of precision timing for FETs that control the motors. Very loosely related to what an ECU does in cars. I agree this is different to the DRM/internet connectivity stuff, but does disservice to the rest of the electronics and software housed within. [0] Trapezoidal Control of BLDC Motors Using Hall Effect Sensors https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz4/sprabz4.pdf https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz4/sprabz4.pdf
schiffern 3y ago
> Hm, I disagree. ... > *Some* systems are better as simple mechanical devices, but I'd put that number at a very, very low percentage. We actually agree. Yes the number of cases is small (hence my wording "non-zero"). ;-) I warned everyone I was making a minor point about "subtle cases," right? Both you and eternityforest thought I needed "correction" and pointed out it was a small number of cases, but I already agree. My reasoning process was the same as both of yours, and I came the same conclusion. But while it's not many cases, we still shouldn't forget it. Imprecise thinking is the mind killer. If a designer categorically decides (to save time) that we humans should never again revert anything (presumably, that has ever been done electronically, by anyone) back to a mechanical solution, they'll produce a worse solution in certain cases. Probably a lot of cases, actually! One may counter, "I don't mean anything that's ever been done electronically by anyone, just the ones where electronics are better", but how do we distinguish the two, beyond in obvious cases? Worse yet, if we need to do that analysis anyway, what brainpower is being saved by having a rule to never switch away from electronics? :-\ TL;DR we should resist the temptation to shortcut with a simplifying rule "thou shalt not switch electronics to mechanics", because it neither rules nor simplifies!

nudgeee 3y ago

Just to add to your first point, many washers feature digital control of motors at the very low level, especially for BLDC motor types. This can reduce noise, increase efficiency and longevity of a motor. This requires electronics and software for precise timing control.

calamari4065 3y ago
Eh, I think that's a different thing. The line between machine and electronics is pretty blurry when you get down to it. Is an LED attached to a mechanical switch electronics? What if the switch controls a transistor that switches the light? A relay? A CPU? What if it's an incandescent bulb on a mechanical timer? The distinction isn't super clear, and a lot of electronic circuits are much less complex and more reliable than a mechanical replacement. Is that good or bad? I think the discussion here is less about "uses any electricity at all" and more "uses internet connected DRM to be actively shitty"
- nudgeee 3y ago
  Indeed, I get the gist of the message, however I’m just highlighting how much advanced electronics and software drive something as ‘mundane’ as a washing machine motor to improve its efficiency [0]. This often requires real-time software calculation of precision timing for FETs that control the motors. Very loosely related to what an ECU does in cars. I agree this is different to the DRM/internet connectivity stuff, but does disservice to the rest of the electronics and software housed within. [0] Trapezoidal Control of BLDC Motors Using Hall Effect Sensors https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz4/sprabz4.pdf https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabz4/sprabz4.pdf

schiffern 3y ago

> Hm, I disagree. ... > *Some* systems are better as simple mechanical devices, but I'd put that number at a very, very low percentage. We actually agree. Yes the number of cases is small (hence my wording "non-zero"). ;-) I warned everyone I was making a minor point about "subtle cases," right? Both you and eternityforest thought I needed "correction" and pointed out it was a small number of cases, but I already agree. My reasoning process was the same as both of yours, and I came the same conclusion. But while it's not many cases, we still shouldn't forget it. Imprecise thinking is the mind killer. If a designer categorically decides (to save time) that we humans should never again revert anything (presumably, that has ever been done electronically, by anyone) back to a mechanical solution, they'll produce a worse solution in certain cases. Probably a lot of cases, actually! One may counter, "I don't mean anything that's ever been done electronically by anyone, just the ones where electronics are better", but how do we distinguish the two, beyond in obvious cases? Worse yet, if we need to do that analysis anyway, what brainpower is being saved by having a rule to never switch away from electronics? :-\ TL;DR we should resist the temptation to shortcut with a simplifying rule "thou shalt not switch electronics to mechanics", because it neither rules nor simplifies!