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Electric Vehicles Are Less Reliable Than Conventional Cars

17 points by gardenfelder 3y ago

gardenfelder 3y ago
"Hybrids are the most reliable cars and PHEVs the least reliable in CR’s most recent survey; Tesla's Model Y is newly recommended"
- resoluteteeth 3y ago
  Note that I don't think that subtitle is intended to summarize the overall findings but just provide some interesting details. The graph is probably the best overall summary of the article: hybrids have 26% fewer problems than normal gas vehicles, electric vehicles have 79% more problems than normal gas vehicles, and PHEVs have 146% more problems than normal gas vehicles. However, I'm not sure even those overall conclusions are that useful because, as the article notes, the reliability varies by vehicle, so you really just need to look at the specific model.
allears 3y ago
It's disappointing to read that the charging and power electronics are troublesome, but I guess that's to be expected as a new kind of power train rolls out. Hopefully warranties cover most of that, but it does bring home the point that if you're on a tight budget, an EV may not be the best choice, and not just because of purchase price.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Amorymeltzer 3y ago
Roughly the same content from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38463355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38463355 (521 points, 1056 comments)
alanfranz 3y ago
Hybrid vehicles are ICE vehicles with something on top. How can they be more reliable? Best case they should be as reliable as ICE vehicles. There must be some other factor at play.
- a_gnostic 3y ago
  Diesel trains have been reliable for far longer than ICE cars,and they are hybrids.
  - alanfranz 3y ago
    I don’t think your comparison holds. How do you compare trains and cars? If you’ve got an ICE engine and an additional electric motor, there’re more chances of either breaking. You cannot have _better_ reliability.
    - maxerickson 3y ago
      The various pieces aren't equal, so it isn't just a matter of more is worse. For instance, a hybrid drivetrain might be more reliable than the transmission it replaced.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  Because the idea that something being simpler always makes it more reliable is a convenient fiction.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  Serial hybrids, where the ICE is just a generator charging a battery, should be just as reliable as ICE vehicles. But hybrids where you need to swap the power output between the combustion engine and electric motors are _really_ complex and have way too many parts that can fail.
jahnu 3y ago
And if we split it up by model or even brand does this alter things? E.g. could it be that one or two EVs are bucking the trend and outperform most gas cars? And so on.
alentred 3y ago
Are the electric vehicles fundamentally less reliable, or is it the current state of the art? Latter is important to call out, but so is projecting ourselves into the future. Electric Vehicles are being actively (re)introduced in the market for what, like 20 years? While ICE were perfected for more than 100 years now. Give it some time.
- matthewfelgate 3y ago
  I concur. This is like the first, maybe second generation of electric cars. It may take time but reliability will likely increase over time. Although I may be wrong. Cars do seem to be getting more complicated with more electronics.
standeven 3y ago
In a few years, this will switch. I regularly work with mobile machinery that was primarily diesel powered, but which is now switching to electric power. The new electrical equipment is far more reliable than the diesel and hydraulic systems they replace, but there are more design issues out of the gate; the engineers are still learning about battery cooling systems, motor sizing, etc. Once the knowledge and experience gap closes, the superior reliability of moving electrons instead of pistons and belts and gears will be clear.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
The headline is just cherry-picking data to imply an incorrect conclusion. The stronger facts are: 1) Toyotas are more reliable than Teslas. 2) The first model year of any vehicle is less reliable than subsequent model years. Any conclusion about electric vehicles vs gasoline or hybrid vehicles is lost in the noise once you remove those two factors. Or saying the same thing more politically: the variation between models is a lot higher than the variation between model types. You cannot draw any conclusion about model types, you can only draw a conclusion about specific models.
- TheChaplain 3y ago
  I am getting a Toyota, a 10 year old ICE should be affordable for me and would probably give me 3-4 years without too much value deprecation. An 10 year old EV, I don't know. Seems like a real gamble considering most battery warrants are only 8 years and would cost as much as the car to replace.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    A 10 year old EV in 2023 likely means either a 2013 Leaf or a 2013 Tesla. If you look those two specific models up in Consumer Reports, CR will tell you to avoid them. OTOH, if in 2028 you replace that used ICE you just bought with a 2018 EV you will have more reliable choices.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    A 10yo EV might be fine, might not. The Model S batteries are easy to service. A shop nearby does it for around 5000€. The same shop says that Mercedes hybrid batteries are impossible to service, they always need to be fully replaced. After we get more information, some EVs will hold their value MUCH better than others just based on the fact how expensive a 3rd party service is (not a full replacement, just swapping modules - something that OEM shops refuse to do).
while_true_ 3y ago
I've always been a little bit skeptical of Consumer Reports. There is selection bias in their stats: reliability reports of cars, refigerators, etc. are not from the entire public at large, only from subscribers. The income, gender and demographic profile of the CR subscriber base is likely not the same as the public at large. Plus over the years the CR writers have panned some good, fun cars and praised some stinkers.
beej71 3y ago
> Automakers have been making hybrids long enough that they’ve gotten really good at it. So good that they're more reliable than gas vehicles that they've been making for a century? Why are hybrids more reliable, really? Because there's more tech in gas cars?

17 points by gardenfelder 3y ago

"Hybrids are the most reliable cars and PHEVs the least reliable in CR’s most recent survey; Tesla's Model Y is newly recommended"

resoluteteeth 3y ago
Note that I don't think that subtitle is intended to summarize the overall findings but just provide some interesting details. The graph is probably the best overall summary of the article: hybrids have 26% fewer problems than normal gas vehicles, electric vehicles have 79% more problems than normal gas vehicles, and PHEVs have 146% more problems than normal gas vehicles. However, I'm not sure even those overall conclusions are that useful because, as the article notes, the reliability varies by vehicle, so you really just need to look at the specific model.

allears 3y ago

It's disappointing to read that the charging and power electronics are troublesome, but I guess that's to be expected as a new kind of power train rolls out. Hopefully warranties cover most of that, but it does bring home the point that if you're on a tight budget, an EV may not be the best choice, and not just because of purchase price.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Amorymeltzer 3y ago

Roughly the same content from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38463355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38463355 (521 points, 1056 comments)

alanfranz 3y ago

Hybrid vehicles are ICE vehicles with something on top. How can they be more reliable? Best case they should be as reliable as ICE vehicles. There must be some other factor at play.

a_gnostic 3y ago
Diesel trains have been reliable for far longer than ICE cars,and they are hybrids.
- alanfranz 3y ago
  I don’t think your comparison holds. How do you compare trains and cars? If you’ve got an ICE engine and an additional electric motor, there’re more chances of either breaking. You cannot have _better_ reliability.
  - maxerickson 3y ago
    The various pieces aren't equal, so it isn't just a matter of more is worse. For instance, a hybrid drivetrain might be more reliable than the transmission it replaced.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
Because the idea that something being simpler always makes it more reliable is a convenient fiction.
theshrike79 3y ago
Serial hybrids, where the ICE is just a generator charging a battery, should be just as reliable as ICE vehicles. But hybrids where you need to swap the power output between the combustion engine and electric motors are _really_ complex and have way too many parts that can fail.

jahnu 3y ago

And if we split it up by model or even brand does this alter things? E.g. could it be that one or two EVs are bucking the trend and outperform most gas cars? And so on.

alentred 3y ago

Are the electric vehicles fundamentally less reliable, or is it the current state of the art? Latter is important to call out, but so is projecting ourselves into the future. Electric Vehicles are being actively (re)introduced in the market for what, like 20 years? While ICE were perfected for more than 100 years now. Give it some time.

matthewfelgate 3y ago
I concur. This is like the first, maybe second generation of electric cars. It may take time but reliability will likely increase over time. Although I may be wrong. Cars do seem to be getting more complicated with more electronics.

standeven 3y ago

In a few years, this will switch. I regularly work with mobile machinery that was primarily diesel powered, but which is now switching to electric power. The new electrical equipment is far more reliable than the diesel and hydraulic systems they replace, but there are more design issues out of the gate; the engineers are still learning about battery cooling systems, motor sizing, etc. Once the knowledge and experience gap closes, the superior reliability of moving electrons instead of pistons and belts and gears will be clear.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

The headline is just cherry-picking data to imply an incorrect conclusion. The stronger facts are: 1) Toyotas are more reliable than Teslas. 2) The first model year of any vehicle is less reliable than subsequent model years. Any conclusion about electric vehicles vs gasoline or hybrid vehicles is lost in the noise once you remove those two factors. Or saying the same thing more politically: the variation between models is a lot higher than the variation between model types. You cannot draw any conclusion about model types, you can only draw a conclusion about specific models.

TheChaplain 3y ago
I am getting a Toyota, a 10 year old ICE should be affordable for me and would probably give me 3-4 years without too much value deprecation. An 10 year old EV, I don't know. Seems like a real gamble considering most battery warrants are only 8 years and would cost as much as the car to replace.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  A 10 year old EV in 2023 likely means either a 2013 Leaf or a 2013 Tesla. If you look those two specific models up in Consumer Reports, CR will tell you to avoid them. OTOH, if in 2028 you replace that used ICE you just bought with a 2018 EV you will have more reliable choices.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  A 10yo EV might be fine, might not. The Model S batteries are easy to service. A shop nearby does it for around 5000€. The same shop says that Mercedes hybrid batteries are impossible to service, they always need to be fully replaced. After we get more information, some EVs will hold their value MUCH better than others just based on the fact how expensive a 3rd party service is (not a full replacement, just swapping modules - something that OEM shops refuse to do).

while_true_ 3y ago

I've always been a little bit skeptical of Consumer Reports. There is selection bias in their stats: reliability reports of cars, refigerators, etc. are not from the entire public at large, only from subscribers. The income, gender and demographic profile of the CR subscriber base is likely not the same as the public at large. Plus over the years the CR writers have panned some good, fun cars and praised some stinkers.

beej71 3y ago

> Automakers have been making hybrids long enough that they’ve gotten really good at it. So good that they're more reliable than gas vehicles that they've been making for a century? Why are hybrids more reliable, really? Because there's more tech in gas cars?