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Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? The war is Russia's fault, but it's also in reaction to

by dudul 3y ago

Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? The war is Russia's fault, but it's also in reaction to the attempt to expand, again, a treaty that was specifically put in place to fight them. Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia and in that case it make sense for them to feel threaten, or it isn't and then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.

clouddrover 3y ago
> why is NATO even needed? Because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened and expanded NATO. Historically, Sweden and Finland haven't wanted to join NATO. Now they're both joining. Finland's membership has already been ratified. Sweden's membership will be ratified within weeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO If Putin's plan was to somehow weaken NATO then that plan has backfired. Putin has comprehensively achieved the opposite result. > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. If Russia doesn't want other nations to join a defensive alliance then Russia must stop giving them reasons to join.
- dudul 3y ago
  Granted that the russian invasion makes NATO look "necessary", but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. We can play chicken and egg for a while, but your answer is not satisfactory. There was a long time between 1991 and the invasion of Ukraine. Why was NATO necessary during these decades? > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. Against whom? The point here is to be pragmatic, who is this treaty targeting? If it is Russia (like it originally did when it was created in the 40s) then it is normal that Russia considers any expansion as a threat. As for Sweden and Finland, it's a technicality. Since they are already part of the EU, article 42 already implies that they are de facto part of NATO.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. No. The invasion was prompted by Putin's desire to correct the historical "wrong" of the fall of the Soviet Union. Many Russians have now pointlessly died for one man's vanity. Remember: Putin has said that Ukraine isn't a real country and that Ukrainians are not a real people. Ukrainians are busy explaining to him that he is wrong. > Against whom? You really need to learn your history. War always comes.
    - dudul 3y ago
      "You really need to learn your history." Hum ok, once we've reached condescension point the conversation is not worth it.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        It's not condescension. It's the fact of the matter.
mopsi 3y ago
> Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? Look at the list of wars involving Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia Russia has been constantly at war and it was only a matter of time before they turned their sights on Europe. NATO wasn't "expanded", it was Eastern Europe that decided to do everything they could to join NATO for mutual cooperation against Russian wars. These fears were ridiculed for a long time, but the war in Ukraine has proved them right. NATO is a threat to Russia insofar as it makes wars costlier, and if we're lucky, untenable.

by dudul 3y ago

clouddrover 3y ago

> why is NATO even needed? Because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened and expanded NATO. Historically, Sweden and Finland haven't wanted to join NATO. Now they're both joining. Finland's membership has already been ratified. Sweden's membership will be ratified within weeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO If Putin's plan was to somehow weaken NATO then that plan has backfired. Putin has comprehensively achieved the opposite result. > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. If Russia doesn't want other nations to join a defensive alliance then Russia must stop giving them reasons to join.

dudul 3y ago
Granted that the russian invasion makes NATO look "necessary", but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. We can play chicken and egg for a while, but your answer is not satisfactory. There was a long time between 1991 and the invasion of Ukraine. Why was NATO necessary during these decades? > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. Against whom? The point here is to be pragmatic, who is this treaty targeting? If it is Russia (like it originally did when it was created in the 40s) then it is normal that Russia considers any expansion as a threat. As for Sweden and Finland, it's a technicality. Since they are already part of the EU, article 42 already implies that they are de facto part of NATO.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. No. The invasion was prompted by Putin's desire to correct the historical "wrong" of the fall of the Soviet Union. Many Russians have now pointlessly died for one man's vanity. Remember: Putin has said that Ukraine isn't a real country and that Ukrainians are not a real people. Ukrainians are busy explaining to him that he is wrong. > Against whom? You really need to learn your history. War always comes.
  - dudul 3y ago
    "You really need to learn your history." Hum ok, once we've reached condescension point the conversation is not worth it.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      It's not condescension. It's the fact of the matter.

mopsi 3y ago

> Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? Look at the list of wars involving Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia Russia has been constantly at war and it was only a matter of time before they turned their sights on Europe. NATO wasn't "expanded", it was Eastern Europe that decided to do everything they could to join NATO for mutual cooperation against Russian wars. These fears were ridiculed for a long time, but the war in Ukraine has proved them right. NATO is a threat to Russia insofar as it makes wars costlier, and if we're lucky, untenable.