3 ms·

Surrounded by Russians, Ukrainian soldier called in a strike on his own position

9 points by clouddrover 3y ago

nikolay 3y ago
All this death and destruction only because Zelensky took the bait from Biden to make a NATO bid and even mentioned the desire to have their own nukes!
- clouddrover 3y ago
  No. All this death and destruction because Putin fantasizes about the restoration of the Russian Empire. Putin wants to be the one what got Ukraine. He wants it to be his legacy. And now many Russians are dying for one man's vanity. It's a pointless war of choice that has made Russia weaker, less stable, more isolated, and more dependent on China.
  - jprd 3y ago
    Exactly. Thank you! I'm not sure how GP can justify what Putin's regime is attempting out of historical paranoia about NATO, his own ill choices that created a traditional autocracy house-of-cards that is somehow also based on mafia behavior, and his PTSD from the Cold War. There is no what-aboutism allowed here. Nation states do foul things, and they should all be judged justly as possible by history. Here, in the _present_, in this thread, we are talking about a specific topic where a much, much larger military power attempting to steamroll a fledgling Democracy after previously stealing a giant chunk of it with brazen menace and comic subterfuge. This also gave birth to Wagner Group and all the harm they and their descendants are causing in Africa through mineral wealth extraction and coup support. We can have a separate thread where we can discuss the irony of this situation from a historical perspective, the cyclical nature of human aggression and ideological absolutism overall. That would be cool. What is NOT cool however, is somehow trying to justify such a war of aggression as a valiant pre-emptive stroke against an encroaching menace. That is farcical, and to be fair and frank, a detriment to any possible position one could have in support of Putin's regime. I personally can't see one, but I'm always open to listen and talk, instead of just throwing hundreds of thousands of lives away because you fell for a conspiracy theory - or even worse, because you created one.
  - nikolay 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      No. The practical outcome is that Putin is the most anti-Russian politician in Russia. Putin runs an extractive mafia state. He has done damage to the Russian nation that will take years to recover from.
      - nikolay 3y ago
        I am not sure about Putin, but Zelensky definitely will stay in Ukrainian history in the magnitude of Hitler in German history!
        clouddrover 3y ago
        So.. you're not sure about Putin, but you're blindly confident that it must all be Someone Else's Fault somehow. That doesn't seem very rational. The best thing to do is to start paying attention and to become sure about Putin.
- dudul 3y ago
  Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? The war is Russia's fault, but it's also in reaction to the attempt to expand, again, a treaty that was specifically put in place to fight them. Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia and in that case it make sense for them to feel threaten, or it isn't and then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > why is NATO even needed? Because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened and expanded NATO. Historically, Sweden and Finland haven't wanted to join NATO. Now they're both joining. Finland's membership has already been ratified. Sweden's membership will be ratified within weeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO If Putin's plan was to somehow weaken NATO then that plan has backfired. Putin has comprehensively achieved the opposite result. > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. If Russia doesn't want other nations to join a defensive alliance then Russia must stop giving them reasons to join.
    - dudul 3y ago
      Granted that the russian invasion makes NATO look "necessary", but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. We can play chicken and egg for a while, but your answer is not satisfactory. There was a long time between 1991 and the invasion of Ukraine. Why was NATO necessary during these decades? > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. Against whom? The point here is to be pragmatic, who is this treaty targeting? If it is Russia (like it originally did when it was created in the 40s) then it is normal that Russia considers any expansion as a threat. As for Sweden and Finland, it's a technicality. Since they are already part of the EU, article 42 already implies that they are de facto part of NATO.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
- baybal2 3y ago
  [dead]

9 points by clouddrover 3y ago

All this death and destruction only because Zelensky took the bait from Biden to make a NATO bid and even mentioned the desire to have their own nukes!

clouddrover 3y ago
No. All this death and destruction because Putin fantasizes about the restoration of the Russian Empire. Putin wants to be the one what got Ukraine. He wants it to be his legacy. And now many Russians are dying for one man's vanity. It's a pointless war of choice that has made Russia weaker, less stable, more isolated, and more dependent on China.
- jprd 3y ago
  Exactly. Thank you! I'm not sure how GP can justify what Putin's regime is attempting out of historical paranoia about NATO, his own ill choices that created a traditional autocracy house-of-cards that is somehow also based on mafia behavior, and his PTSD from the Cold War. There is no what-aboutism allowed here. Nation states do foul things, and they should all be judged justly as possible by history. Here, in the _present_, in this thread, we are talking about a specific topic where a much, much larger military power attempting to steamroll a fledgling Democracy after previously stealing a giant chunk of it with brazen menace and comic subterfuge. This also gave birth to Wagner Group and all the harm they and their descendants are causing in Africa through mineral wealth extraction and coup support. We can have a separate thread where we can discuss the irony of this situation from a historical perspective, the cyclical nature of human aggression and ideological absolutism overall. That would be cool. What is NOT cool however, is somehow trying to justify such a war of aggression as a valiant pre-emptive stroke against an encroaching menace. That is farcical, and to be fair and frank, a detriment to any possible position one could have in support of Putin's regime. I personally can't see one, but I'm always open to listen and talk, instead of just throwing hundreds of thousands of lives away because you fell for a conspiracy theory - or even worse, because you created one.
- nikolay 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    No. The practical outcome is that Putin is the most anti-Russian politician in Russia. Putin runs an extractive mafia state. He has done damage to the Russian nation that will take years to recover from.
    - nikolay 3y ago
      I am not sure about Putin, but Zelensky definitely will stay in Ukrainian history in the magnitude of Hitler in German history!
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        So.. you're not sure about Putin, but you're blindly confident that it must all be Someone Else's Fault somehow. That doesn't seem very rational. The best thing to do is to start paying attention and to become sure about Putin.
dudul 3y ago
Serious question: why is NATO even needed? Shouldn't it have been dissolved after the collapse of USSR? The war is Russia's fault, but it's also in reaction to the attempt to expand, again, a treaty that was specifically put in place to fight them. Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia and in that case it make sense for them to feel threaten, or it isn't and then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > why is NATO even needed? Because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened and expanded NATO. Historically, Sweden and Finland haven't wanted to join NATO. Now they're both joining. Finland's membership has already been ratified. Sweden's membership will be ratified within weeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61397478 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO If Putin's plan was to somehow weaken NATO then that plan has backfired. Putin has comprehensively achieved the opposite result. > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. If Russia doesn't want other nations to join a defensive alliance then Russia must stop giving them reasons to join.
  - dudul 3y ago
    Granted that the russian invasion makes NATO look "necessary", but the invasion was prompted by the desire to expand NATO. We can play chicken and egg for a while, but your answer is not satisfactory. There was a long time between 1991 and the invasion of Ukraine. Why was NATO necessary during these decades? > Either NATOs goal still is to fight Russia It isn't. NATO is a defensive alliance. Against whom? The point here is to be pragmatic, who is this treaty targeting? If it is Russia (like it originally did when it was created in the 40s) then it is normal that Russia considers any expansion as a threat. As for Sweden and Finland, it's a technicality. Since they are already part of the EU, article 42 already implies that they are de facto part of NATO.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
baybal2 3y ago
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