4 ms·

You are misusing the term "begging the question", which is a formal logical fallacy and not synonymous with "raising the question". https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

by loeber 3y ago

You are misusing the term "begging the question", which is a formal logical fallacy and not synonymous with "raising the question". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

riffic 3y ago
everyone misuses the term which raises questions about prescriptivism vs descriptivism.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  You're begging the question with this dichotomy. It likely originally arose as a descriptive term among those who had the requisite knowledge base prescribed to them. :P
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
I think one important reason people misuse this so much is because "begging the question" does not straightforwardly convey the meaning assigned to it by whichever logicians coined the modern English term. It's a linguistically crappy term. I'd personally prefer that "beg the question" be repurposed in the way GP used it, and that another term be used to describe the logician's idea.
wharvle 3y ago
This one’s lost. Carry on using it correctly among those who get it, avoiding the expression among those who probably don’t, and quietly accepting this usage from those who employ it (while, perhaps, marking them off your mental list of potential proof-readers). I don’t even feel too bad about this one, because it’s so easily misunderstood. May as well let it go.
- loeber 3y ago
  I don't think it's lost at all. One mindful correction may lead the recipient to a lifetime of correct usage (and perhaps correcting others). The viral coefficient seems favorable.
  - incrudible 3y ago
    It is not incorrect to use this expression, it can universally be understood to mean what the author meant through context, whereas the usage you consider correct is exotic. https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/beg-the-question https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/beg-the-question
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      You're getting downvoted, but thanks for posting this link. The blog post by Stan Carey (excerpted below) mentioned in it was quite interesting. > Beg the question first appeared in English in a 1581 text of Aristotle’s Prior Analytics, and this translation has had semantic ripples down the centuries. The phrase is opaque because its use of beg is really not a good fit – it’s no wonder people have interpreted it ‘wrongly’. Had the original English translation been assume the conclusion or take the conclusion for granted instead of beg the question, there would be far less uncertainty and vexation. > 269 out of 300 examples of begs the question used it to mean raises the question, more or less. That’s 90%. This figure show its huge predominance in contemporary discourse. Outside of formal debates and philosophical or semi-philosophical contexts, the traditional meaning of beg the question is hardly ever used. The evade the question use is rarer still. > This is why insisting on the original use, as prescriptivists do, risks confusing many readers. It’s not a practical or constructive stance. Correctness changes with sufficient usage, yet sticklers still refuse to accept there can be more than one way to use this phrase. By adopting the tenets of one phrase → one meaning and original meaning = true meaning, they have painted themselves into a corner. > The expression is ‘skunked’, to use Garner’s term. Grammarphobia agrees that it’s ‘virtually useless’, and Mark Liberman recommends avoiding it altogether. In formal use I advise caution for this reason, but in everyday use you’ll encounter little or no difficulty or criticism with the raise the question usage. Additionally the LangLog link shows that "begging the question" is a result of badly translating a less than perfect translation. Greek to Latin and Latin to English. > Some medieval translator (does anyone know who?) decided to translate Aristotle's "assuming the conclusion" into petitio principii. In classical Latin, petitio meant "an attack, a blow; a requesting, beseeching; a request, petition". But in post-classical Latin petitio was also used to mean "a postulate" > Why begging the question? Well, petitio (from peto) in this context means "assuming" or "postulating", but it has other (and older) meanings, from which the notion of logical postulate or assumption arose: "requesting, beseeching". So rather than use some fancy Latinate term like postulate or assume, people decided to use the plain English word beg[ging] as a sort of calque for the "requesting" sense of petitio. But even in the 16th century, I think, it was a bit odd to warn people against presupposing the end-point of their argument by telling them not to beg their conclusion.
fgoesbrrr 3y ago
Language is defined by it's usage. If enough people make one particular "mistake", eventually that mistake becomes the "correct" usage. See "literally" as an example: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/misuse-of-literally https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/misuse-of-literally
- riffic 3y ago
  or your unnecessary apostrophe in it's
tromp 3y ago
I was using it in this sense > The phrase "begs the question" is also commonly used in an entirely unrelated way to mean "prompts a question" or "raises a question", although such usage is sometimes disputed.[4] but will try to refrain from doing so in future...

by loeber 3y ago

riffic 3y ago

everyone misuses the term which raises questions about prescriptivism vs descriptivism.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
You're begging the question with this dichotomy. It likely originally arose as a descriptive term among those who had the requisite knowledge base prescribed to them. :P

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

I think one important reason people misuse this so much is because "begging the question" does not straightforwardly convey the meaning assigned to it by whichever logicians coined the modern English term. It's a linguistically crappy term. I'd personally prefer that "beg the question" be repurposed in the way GP used it, and that another term be used to describe the logician's idea.

wharvle 3y ago

This one’s lost. Carry on using it correctly among those who get it, avoiding the expression among those who probably don’t, and quietly accepting this usage from those who employ it (while, perhaps, marking them off your mental list of potential proof-readers). I don’t even feel too bad about this one, because it’s so easily misunderstood. May as well let it go.

loeber 3y ago
I don't think it's lost at all. One mindful correction may lead the recipient to a lifetime of correct usage (and perhaps correcting others). The viral coefficient seems favorable.
- incrudible 3y ago
  It is not incorrect to use this expression, it can universally be understood to mean what the author meant through context, whereas the usage you consider correct is exotic. https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/beg-the-question https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/beg-the-question
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    You're getting downvoted, but thanks for posting this link. The blog post by Stan Carey (excerpted below) mentioned in it was quite interesting. > Beg the question first appeared in English in a 1581 text of Aristotle’s Prior Analytics, and this translation has had semantic ripples down the centuries. The phrase is opaque because its use of beg is really not a good fit – it’s no wonder people have interpreted it ‘wrongly’. Had the original English translation been assume the conclusion or take the conclusion for granted instead of beg the question, there would be far less uncertainty and vexation. > 269 out of 300 examples of begs the question used it to mean raises the question, more or less. That’s 90%. This figure show its huge predominance in contemporary discourse. Outside of formal debates and philosophical or semi-philosophical contexts, the traditional meaning of beg the question is hardly ever used. The evade the question use is rarer still. > This is why insisting on the original use, as prescriptivists do, risks confusing many readers. It’s not a practical or constructive stance. Correctness changes with sufficient usage, yet sticklers still refuse to accept there can be more than one way to use this phrase. By adopting the tenets of one phrase → one meaning and original meaning = true meaning, they have painted themselves into a corner. > The expression is ‘skunked’, to use Garner’s term. Grammarphobia agrees that it’s ‘virtually useless’, and Mark Liberman recommends avoiding it altogether. In formal use I advise caution for this reason, but in everyday use you’ll encounter little or no difficulty or criticism with the raise the question usage. Additionally the LangLog link shows that "begging the question" is a result of badly translating a less than perfect translation. Greek to Latin and Latin to English. > Some medieval translator (does anyone know who?) decided to translate Aristotle's "assuming the conclusion" into petitio principii. In classical Latin, petitio meant "an attack, a blow; a requesting, beseeching; a request, petition". But in post-classical Latin petitio was also used to mean "a postulate" > Why begging the question? Well, petitio (from peto) in this context means "assuming" or "postulating", but it has other (and older) meanings, from which the notion of logical postulate or assumption arose: "requesting, beseeching". So rather than use some fancy Latinate term like postulate or assume, people decided to use the plain English word beg[ging] as a sort of calque for the "requesting" sense of petitio. But even in the 16th century, I think, it was a bit odd to warn people against presupposing the end-point of their argument by telling them not to beg their conclusion.

fgoesbrrr 3y ago

Language is defined by it's usage. If enough people make one particular "mistake", eventually that mistake becomes the "correct" usage. See "literally" as an example: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/misuse-of-literally https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/misuse-of-literally

riffic 3y ago
or your unnecessary apostrophe in it's

tromp 3y ago

I was using it in this sense > The phrase "begs the question" is also commonly used in an entirely unrelated way to mean "prompts a question" or "raises a question", although such usage is sometimes disputed.[4] but will try to refrain from doing so in future...