4 ms·

Like with so many mainstream usecase projects, I'd wager to say the protocol/backend is the easy part. It all depends on good easy to use clients.

geraldhh 3y ago
thou afaik the spec does not include any provisions for direct messages (as technically it's only a group with two members), leaving the mess up to the clients.
- nicoco 3y ago
  That's true for Matrix, not XMPP.
- dasyatidprime 3y ago
  Where are you getting this? My memory is the exact opposite: XMPP targeted one-to-one messages first and then MUC was a sort of weird bolt-on.
  - geraldhh 3y ago
    apologies, my memory must have gotten mixed up. point stands, as both deliver a subpar experience with either dm's or groups
troupo 3y ago
> I'd wager to say the protocol/backend is the easy part. And yet, in 2016, 9 years after the first iPhone, XMPP still struggled to provide any of the modern conveniences on the protocol level: https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html (at the time most of the links marked as "solution available" were going to experimental and beta proposals) The protocol/backend can be, and often is, as much hindrance as the clients.
- nicoco 3y ago
  iOS is not indie-dev-that-does-not-want-to-monetize-friendly and I believe this is the cause of this struggle. Siskin and Monal are iOS clients that solved the issue apparently.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > indie-dev-that-does-not-want-to-monetize-friendly Noting is "I need to spend a significunt chunk of my time for no renumeration"-friendly. And yet there are numerous free, or pay-less-than-a-cup-of-coffee clients for many things and services, whether those are open or closed, free or paid (Ivory for Mastodon https://tapbots.com/ivory/ https://tapbots.com/ivory/ and Wikipedia's app come to mind). Thanks for the tip for Siskin and Monal! Even a few years ago the situation was dire.
    - nicoco 3y ago
      > Nothing is ... Fair point. I'm a dreamer ;) I believe the lack of great clients for apple platforms is due to how little the overlap is between people who see value in using a self-hosted, federated, lightweight chat system and people who want to use apple products.

geraldhh 3y ago

thou afaik the spec does not include any provisions for direct messages (as technically it's only a group with two members), leaving the mess up to the clients.

nicoco 3y ago
That's true for Matrix, not XMPP.
dasyatidprime 3y ago
Where are you getting this? My memory is the exact opposite: XMPP targeted one-to-one messages first and then MUC was a sort of weird bolt-on.
- geraldhh 3y ago
  apologies, my memory must have gotten mixed up. point stands, as both deliver a subpar experience with either dm's or groups

troupo 3y ago

> I'd wager to say the protocol/backend is the easy part. And yet, in 2016, 9 years after the first iPhone, XMPP still struggled to provide any of the modern conveniences on the protocol level: https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html (at the time most of the links marked as "solution available" were going to experimental and beta proposals) The protocol/backend can be, and often is, as much hindrance as the clients.

nicoco 3y ago
iOS is not indie-dev-that-does-not-want-to-monetize-friendly and I believe this is the cause of this struggle. Siskin and Monal are iOS clients that solved the issue apparently.
- troupo 3y ago
  > indie-dev-that-does-not-want-to-monetize-friendly Noting is "I need to spend a significunt chunk of my time for no renumeration"-friendly. And yet there are numerous free, or pay-less-than-a-cup-of-coffee clients for many things and services, whether those are open or closed, free or paid (Ivory for Mastodon https://tapbots.com/ivory/ https://tapbots.com/ivory/ and Wikipedia's app come to mind). Thanks for the tip for Siskin and Monal! Even a few years ago the situation was dire.
  - nicoco 3y ago
    > Nothing is ... Fair point. I'm a dreamer ;) I believe the lack of great clients for apple platforms is due to how little the overlap is between people who see value in using a self-hosted, federated, lightweight chat system and people who want to use apple products.