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Now, right now, this is the moment for Mozilla to pull their heads out of their asses and really push to improve Firefox. Google is cranking up the user hostili

Now, right now, this is the moment for Mozilla to pull their heads out of their asses and really push to improve Firefox. Google is cranking up the user hostility, but if there's no viable alterative, people are gonna be stuck being spied on and tracked everywhere by chrome. If we had an alternative, this would be the time for an organized push to get people on it. But Mozilla has either become complacent or been quietly bought out behind the scenes and Firefox isn't really competitive anymore. Sure, you can still use Firefox. I do, begrudgingly. But it's not good enough to convince people to switch. It hasn't been for a very long time which is why we're in this mess in the first place. I expect nothing will change and everyone will suffer for it. Maybe people will get offline more. The internet as a whole is becoming exponentially shittier as time goes on. How much longer before it's completely intolerable?

roca 3y ago
What exactly do you think is substandard about Firefox?
- _cenw 3y ago
  https://github.com/webcompat/web-bugs/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Abrowser-firefox https://github.com/webcompat/web-bugs/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%... Microsoft Teams (which I don't think many people use voluntarily) in particular breaks in stupid ways - and then in others if you spoof your user agent.
  - phs318u 3y ago
    I use Microsoft Edge - have added their apt repository so updates are automagical. Edge, though based on Chrome's engine, still supports manifest V2 so adblockers such as UO still work fine. Even better, Edge let's you "appify" sites like Teams and Outlook - perfect for work. I use Edge for all my WFH needs, turning off UO for most MS sites (to avoid any subtle issues), and Firefox for all personal needs. Works for me. Oh, and Teams on Linux using Edge works a treat.
    - _cenw 3y ago
      Absolutely not. I've gone great lengths about my attempt at using Edge here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 In short: It has zero respect for the user, so little that it regularly gaslit me into thinking I had agreed to things I did not. They also signaled intent to simply merge the ripping out of MV2, so as soon as Chrome drops it, Edge will too.
- eyegor 3y ago
  There are several web apis that Mozilla refuses to support, for example webhid or webusb, which all chromium browsers have had for years at this point. Same for little css features and some bits in the webaudio and webrtc implementations. Mozilla refusing to support webhid in any way: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#webhid https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#webhid Chrome adding it to stable in 2021: https://developer.chrome.com/blog/new-in-chrome-89/ https://developer.chrome.com/blog/new-in-chrome-89/
  - nolist_policy 3y ago
    This, they refuse to implement it claiming privacy reasons. The sad thing is, if FirefoxOS would still be a thing they wouldn't bat an eye.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      Can you defend the proposition that Firefox isn't a viable browser for lack of these APIs by listing popular websites that won't work without them? Serious question, because I can't think of any.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        https://suite.trezor.io/web/ https://suite.trezor.io/web/ https://pixelrepair.withgoogle.com/ https://pixelrepair.withgoogle.com/ Are 2 that pop in to my head
        mcpackieh 3y ago
        Trezor is... a crypto hardware wallet? I can't imagine this sort of thing is popular enough to block firefox from mainstream adoption. The pixel repair site is an interesting example, but AFAIK, Pixel phones have about 2% of the US market share and this website is only useful to a small number of those users (those who encounter a serious error) and isn't something even those users would be using often. If I had to use this website and couldn't get my phone fixed another way, I could install and use Chrome (or I presume another Chromium browser) and use it for this single purpose. It would take me only a few minutes/hours(?) and then I'd be done with it. Why would a site like this keep me using Chrome permanently? I just can't imagine that.
ladzoppelin 3y ago
Nothing is substandard in Firefox. Manifest 3 in Chrome is actually giving Google the ability to make Chrome substandard. I know it annoying to hear but I really think its better if people switch to Firefox.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Sorry but lots of things are substandard in Firefox. On the rare occasion that I do use it the first thing I'm always promted with is "there's an update available - click here to restart" like it's 2003 again. Numerous pages have rendering problems with Firefox. Performance is not good enough. Dev tools have fallen behind. It aggressively pushes shitty "value-adds" like that lame bookmarking service (Pocket Mark or something). And the never ending UI refreshes are exhausting.
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    Show me these pages that Firefox doesn't render well. Show me pages that tank Firefox performance. How many of them will have -webkit-* and other engine-exclusive markup/CSS? Firefox updates every 6 weeks, just like Chrome. What do you want in the devtools that Chrome has and Firefox doesn't? I've been using Firefox for nearly two decades and aside from the WebExtensions and some UI changes, it's been solid. I find most criticisms of Firefox on websites are lacking links and profiling data.
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      > Show me these pages that Firefox doesn't render well. I'm not doing homework for you. Lots of pages don't render well in Firefox, it's a well known issue which is why it comes up in every thread about Firefox. > Show me pages that tank Firefox performance. Firefox in general performs poorly. Again, known long-term ongoing issue. Look at this thread where almost every top-level comment is sceptical that Firefox is even close to Chrome in performance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36770883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36770883 You can find ongoing performance benchmarks between Chrome and Firefox here, and it's not flattering for FF: https://arewefastyet.com https://arewefastyet.com > How many of them will have -webkit-* and other engine-exclusive markup/CSS? I don't care, at all. It's not my job, as a user, to debug performance problems. > Firefox updates every 6 weeks, just like Chrome. Ok? I didn't say anything about update cadence.
mcv 3y ago
Firefox is perfectly usable, and in fact already superior to Chrome. It is a very viable alternative. Best browser I've ever had. The fact that they choose not to implement some apis because they're harmful to privacy doesn't seem to hurt me in any way.
ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
Is there any possibility of forking Visual Code and adding extension and profile support?
- YoshiRulz 3y ago
  VS Code, the IDE? It may use Electron but that doesn't make it a browser.
mvdtnz 3y ago
A majority of Firefox's funding comes from Google. I doubt they're willing to aggressively market their browser as "the one to use to get around Google's ads". I'm not sure of the exact figures but as I recall, losing Google's funding would be a company-ending event.
- dun44 3y ago
  In other words, we might need a browser that’s actually an Open Source project, as opposed to something built by company and released with source.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    Good luck with that. This kind of approach might work with some projects where you don't need responsive updates and continuous development to keep up with changing standards and new vulnerabilities being continuously found, such as vim, but for a really big software project I'm not aware of this working at all. The Linux kernel is maybe comparable in size and scope, but it's developed by a bunch of corporate developers too, though they're scattered across different companies that all need the kernel. A web browser isn't really like a kernel; how many companies are going to contribute developers to a project like that?
rewgs 3y ago
Lots of people here disagreeing with you that Firefox is worse, but I'm with you. I'm on an M1 MacBook Air, been a Chrome user forever, but when they started getting aggressive with adblocking on YouTube, I switched over to Firefox, both on macOS and iOS. Boy, it is...worse. I really gave it the old college try. Brought over all my extensions, dove into the really good ones (some of which really are incredible), even customized the Firefox interface, etc. I went hard. But eventually I ended up back on Chrome, purely due to performance. Firefox is simply very slow and choppy. It's not a good experience. I'd love to go Safari full time, but I use so many Linux and Windows machines in addition to my Macs that I really need something cross-platform, and so Chrome has always been the best solution for me. It's a bummer but I think I'm on Chrome for the foreseeable future.

roca 3y ago

What exactly do you think is substandard about Firefox?

_cenw 3y ago
https://github.com/webcompat/web-bugs/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Abrowser-firefox https://github.com/webcompat/web-bugs/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%... Microsoft Teams (which I don't think many people use voluntarily) in particular breaks in stupid ways - and then in others if you spoof your user agent.
- phs318u 3y ago
  I use Microsoft Edge - have added their apt repository so updates are automagical. Edge, though based on Chrome's engine, still supports manifest V2 so adblockers such as UO still work fine. Even better, Edge let's you "appify" sites like Teams and Outlook - perfect for work. I use Edge for all my WFH needs, turning off UO for most MS sites (to avoid any subtle issues), and Firefox for all personal needs. Works for me. Oh, and Teams on Linux using Edge works a treat.
  - _cenw 3y ago
    Absolutely not. I've gone great lengths about my attempt at using Edge here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102 In short: It has zero respect for the user, so little that it regularly gaslit me into thinking I had agreed to things I did not. They also signaled intent to simply merge the ripping out of MV2, so as soon as Chrome drops it, Edge will too.
eyegor 3y ago
There are several web apis that Mozilla refuses to support, for example webhid or webusb, which all chromium browsers have had for years at this point. Same for little css features and some bits in the webaudio and webrtc implementations. Mozilla refusing to support webhid in any way: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#webhid https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#webhid Chrome adding it to stable in 2021: https://developer.chrome.com/blog/new-in-chrome-89/ https://developer.chrome.com/blog/new-in-chrome-89/
- nolist_policy 3y ago
  This, they refuse to implement it claiming privacy reasons. The sad thing is, if FirefoxOS would still be a thing they wouldn't bat an eye.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Can you defend the proposition that Firefox isn't a viable browser for lack of these APIs by listing popular websites that won't work without them? Serious question, because I can't think of any.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      https://suite.trezor.io/web/ https://suite.trezor.io/web/ https://pixelrepair.withgoogle.com/ https://pixelrepair.withgoogle.com/ Are 2 that pop in to my head
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        Trezor is... a crypto hardware wallet? I can't imagine this sort of thing is popular enough to block firefox from mainstream adoption. The pixel repair site is an interesting example, but AFAIK, Pixel phones have about 2% of the US market share and this website is only useful to a small number of those users (those who encounter a serious error) and isn't something even those users would be using often. If I had to use this website and couldn't get my phone fixed another way, I could install and use Chrome (or I presume another Chromium browser) and use it for this single purpose. It would take me only a few minutes/hours(?) and then I'd be done with it. Why would a site like this keep me using Chrome permanently? I just can't imagine that.

ladzoppelin 3y ago

Nothing is substandard in Firefox. Manifest 3 in Chrome is actually giving Google the ability to make Chrome substandard. I know it annoying to hear but I really think its better if people switch to Firefox.

mvdtnz 3y ago
Sorry but lots of things are substandard in Firefox. On the rare occasion that I do use it the first thing I'm always promted with is "there's an update available - click here to restart" like it's 2003 again. Numerous pages have rendering problems with Firefox. Performance is not good enough. Dev tools have fallen behind. It aggressively pushes shitty "value-adds" like that lame bookmarking service (Pocket Mark or something). And the never ending UI refreshes are exhausting.
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  Show me these pages that Firefox doesn't render well. Show me pages that tank Firefox performance. How many of them will have -webkit-* and other engine-exclusive markup/CSS? Firefox updates every 6 weeks, just like Chrome. What do you want in the devtools that Chrome has and Firefox doesn't? I've been using Firefox for nearly two decades and aside from the WebExtensions and some UI changes, it's been solid. I find most criticisms of Firefox on websites are lacking links and profiling data.
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    > Show me these pages that Firefox doesn't render well. I'm not doing homework for you. Lots of pages don't render well in Firefox, it's a well known issue which is why it comes up in every thread about Firefox. > Show me pages that tank Firefox performance. Firefox in general performs poorly. Again, known long-term ongoing issue. Look at this thread where almost every top-level comment is sceptical that Firefox is even close to Chrome in performance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36770883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36770883 You can find ongoing performance benchmarks between Chrome and Firefox here, and it's not flattering for FF: https://arewefastyet.com https://arewefastyet.com > How many of them will have -webkit-* and other engine-exclusive markup/CSS? I don't care, at all. It's not my job, as a user, to debug performance problems. > Firefox updates every 6 weeks, just like Chrome. Ok? I didn't say anything about update cadence.

mcv 3y ago

Firefox is perfectly usable, and in fact already superior to Chrome. It is a very viable alternative. Best browser I've ever had. The fact that they choose not to implement some apis because they're harmful to privacy doesn't seem to hurt me in any way.

ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago

Is there any possibility of forking Visual Code and adding extension and profile support?

YoshiRulz 3y ago
VS Code, the IDE? It may use Electron but that doesn't make it a browser.

mvdtnz 3y ago

A majority of Firefox's funding comes from Google. I doubt they're willing to aggressively market their browser as "the one to use to get around Google's ads". I'm not sure of the exact figures but as I recall, losing Google's funding would be a company-ending event.

dun44 3y ago
In other words, we might need a browser that’s actually an Open Source project, as opposed to something built by company and released with source.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  Good luck with that. This kind of approach might work with some projects where you don't need responsive updates and continuous development to keep up with changing standards and new vulnerabilities being continuously found, such as vim, but for a really big software project I'm not aware of this working at all. The Linux kernel is maybe comparable in size and scope, but it's developed by a bunch of corporate developers too, though they're scattered across different companies that all need the kernel. A web browser isn't really like a kernel; how many companies are going to contribute developers to a project like that?

rewgs 3y ago

Lots of people here disagreeing with you that Firefox is worse, but I'm with you. I'm on an M1 MacBook Air, been a Chrome user forever, but when they started getting aggressive with adblocking on YouTube, I switched over to Firefox, both on macOS and iOS. Boy, it is...worse. I really gave it the old college try. Brought over all my extensions, dove into the really good ones (some of which really are incredible), even customized the Firefox interface, etc. I went hard. But eventually I ended up back on Chrome, purely due to performance. Firefox is simply very slow and choppy. It's not a good experience. I'd love to go Safari full time, but I use so many Linux and Windows machines in addition to my Macs that I really need something cross-platform, and so Chrome has always been the best solution for me. It's a bummer but I think I'm on Chrome for the foreseeable future.