4 ms·

Any decade now people are going to realize how awesome XMPP is and start using it for everything!

by oofbey 3y ago

pkphilip 3y ago
True :)
fy20 3y ago
I've heard 2024 will be the year of the Linux desktop and XMPP...
geraldhh 3y ago
most consumer devices and services nowadays build upon foss tech, some even could be used in a foss way, but walled gardens are so much more profitable.
troupo 3y ago
> Any decade now people are going to realize how awesome XMPP In all honesty, it's not that awesome. It took XMPP over a decade to get features expected from modern protocols such as not requiring persistent connections, client notifications, conversation syncing between clients, file uploads, E2EE...
- zaik 3y ago
  If you account for resources which have been put into development of those features, it's pretty obvious XMPP is the more agile protocol. Five independent open source developers take longer to develop some feature in their spare time than a corporation with tens of millions of venture capital funding, and sometimes they're even faster? Imagine what could be if people focused on XMPP instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > If you account for resources which have been put into development of those features, it's pretty obvious XMPP is the more agile protocol. 10 years is not agile. > Imagine what could be if people focused on XMPP instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel. We could try and imagine. As it stands, it's XMPP which is reinventing the wheel, continuously. The primary reason being: it was developed at a time when non-persistent internet connection, multi-device synchronisation, video calls, ubiquitous file sharing and other wonders of the modern world didn't exist, and retrofitting it was a multi-year struggle. Undoubtedly prolonged by the very same people who decried the modern world and claimed that XMPP was enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839
- nicoco 3y ago
  Do not trust the FUD. I've been using XMPP since I had a smartphone (I was late to the party, around 2015) and never needed a persistent connection or had issues with multi-device use. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html solves both and the first version is from 2012. E2EE via opengpg has been there since the beginning of XMPP, and via OMEMO (signal-like) for 7 years now, just like HTTP file upload.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > Do not trust the FUD. I don't. I know what I'm talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 > solves both and the first version is from 2012. The question is: when it stopped being experimental and supported by most servers and clients.
    - seba_dos1 3y ago
      You saying things like "experimental or beta proposal" in context of XEPs shows that you don't know what you're talking about. For a while and for several reasons, many XEPs used to be widely implemented already before they have been processed beyond draft state. XSF's process has been unclogged relatively recently.
- arendtio 3y ago
  How many protocols do you know that made that transition at all? I don't know many that even have that level of requirements (low latency, multi-device, low energy consumption, federation, scalability) in the first place, and even fewer that managed to pull that feat off. IRC probably has a similar level of requirements, but I haven't heard of its mobile capabilities. Most others seem to be completely new developments and in the case of Matrix e.g. they seem to have solved some issues by reducing the scalability (higher server load). So yes, it took a while for XMPP to solve those issues, and you can say it took too long. But at the same time having done that at all, is an achievement in itself.
nicoco 3y ago
Not sure about _everything_ but it is already in use for notifications on Nintendo Switch, Fortnite group chats, WhatsApp... Of course, none of these are federated or mention XMPP anywhere, but it tells something about the intrinsic qualities of the tech IMHO. https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/
- zaik 3y ago
  WhatsApp will be forced to federate as a designated gatekeeper under the DMA by the EU. XMPP could be an obvious choice to them since they already use it internally.
  - nicoco 3y ago
    They use private custom extensions that makes it non-trivial to federate with XMPP unfortunately. I haven't followed closely what's happening with this DMA but I wouldn't get my hopes up about XMPP being chosen for anything, sadly.

Any decade now people are going to realize how awesome XMPP is and start using it for everything!

by oofbey 3y ago

Any decade now people are going to realize how awesome XMPP is and start using it for everything!

pkphilip 3y ago

True :)

fy20 3y ago

I've heard 2024 will be the year of the Linux desktop and XMPP...

geraldhh 3y ago

most consumer devices and services nowadays build upon foss tech, some even could be used in a foss way, but walled gardens are so much more profitable.

troupo 3y ago

> Any decade now people are going to realize how awesome XMPP In all honesty, it's not that awesome. It took XMPP over a decade to get features expected from modern protocols such as not requiring persistent connections, client notifications, conversation syncing between clients, file uploads, E2EE...

zaik 3y ago
If you account for resources which have been put into development of those features, it's pretty obvious XMPP is the more agile protocol. Five independent open source developers take longer to develop some feature in their spare time than a corporation with tens of millions of venture capital funding, and sometimes they're even faster? Imagine what could be if people focused on XMPP instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel.
- troupo 3y ago
  > If you account for resources which have been put into development of those features, it's pretty obvious XMPP is the more agile protocol. 10 years is not agile. > Imagine what could be if people focused on XMPP instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel. We could try and imagine. As it stands, it's XMPP which is reinventing the wheel, continuously. The primary reason being: it was developed at a time when non-persistent internet connection, multi-device synchronisation, video calls, ubiquitous file sharing and other wonders of the modern world didn't exist, and retrofitting it was a multi-year struggle. Undoubtedly prolonged by the very same people who decried the modern world and claimed that XMPP was enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839
nicoco 3y ago
Do not trust the FUD. I've been using XMPP since I had a smartphone (I was late to the party, around 2015) and never needed a persistent connection or had issues with multi-device use. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html solves both and the first version is from 2012. E2EE via opengpg has been there since the beginning of XMPP, and via OMEMO (signal-like) for 7 years now, just like HTTP file upload.
- troupo 3y ago
  > Do not trust the FUD. I don't. I know what I'm talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497839 > solves both and the first version is from 2012. The question is: when it stopped being experimental and supported by most servers and clients.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    You saying things like "experimental or beta proposal" in context of XEPs shows that you don't know what you're talking about. For a while and for several reasons, many XEPs used to be widely implemented already before they have been processed beyond draft state. XSF's process has been unclogged relatively recently.
arendtio 3y ago
How many protocols do you know that made that transition at all? I don't know many that even have that level of requirements (low latency, multi-device, low energy consumption, federation, scalability) in the first place, and even fewer that managed to pull that feat off. IRC probably has a similar level of requirements, but I haven't heard of its mobile capabilities. Most others seem to be completely new developments and in the case of Matrix e.g. they seem to have solved some issues by reducing the scalability (higher server load). So yes, it took a while for XMPP to solve those issues, and you can say it took too long. But at the same time having done that at all, is an achievement in itself.

nicoco 3y ago

Not sure about _everything_ but it is already in use for notifications on Nintendo Switch, Fortnite group chats, WhatsApp... Of course, none of these are federated or mention XMPP anywhere, but it tells something about the intrinsic qualities of the tech IMHO. https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/

zaik 3y ago
WhatsApp will be forced to federate as a designated gatekeeper under the DMA by the EU. XMPP could be an obvious choice to them since they already use it internally.
- nicoco 3y ago
  They use private custom extensions that makes it non-trivial to federate with XMPP unfortunately. I haven't followed closely what's happening with this DMA but I wouldn't get my hopes up about XMPP being chosen for anything, sadly.