3 ms·

The conclusion in the title isn't justified by the content. Bad designs are bad designs, regardless of whether they're electronic systems or mechanical systems

The conclusion in the title isn't justified by the content. Bad designs are bad designs, regardless of whether they're electronic systems or mechanical systems. Ford and Nissan have shipped plenty of mechanical systems that leave something to be desired. Funny enough, I had a Ford truck in the 80s that spent a week in the shop because a shorted taillight bulb caused the entire electrical system to misbehave. No CAN bus required. And, dealer only parts? That's hardly an 'electronics' issue. Try to replace anything other than body panels or drivetrain parts, and you'll find a lot of this.

jacquesm 3y ago
In the case of drivetrain parts that may well be an anti-theft measure to make it harder for chopshops to sell drivetrain parts from stolen vehicles.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Drivetrain parts are the easy things to find in the aftermarket, because they're wear parts, and people have to replace them to make the car go, so they're profitable to make. The kind of stuff that's hard to find in the aftermarket are things like oddball interior parts that don't need regular replacing.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, true. But what I meant (and failed to explain, apparently) that for instance a gearbox can be paired to a particular ECU and that the manufacturer does that to stop the gearbox from being sold separately from the engine, which makes it harder for a chopshop to do its thing because and engine without a serial number is kind of suspect but a gearbox (which, especially for a larger car can be quite expensive) would often be overlooked during an inspection. By tying the two together it now becomes mandatory to not only swap out the gearbox but also the engine (or the ECU, but that's not all that easy either). I've had a VW van stolen right from in front of my house and to this day it's a mystery to me how they did it, there was no glass so they must have had a key or a way to open the vehicle and those are fairly solid. You can't start the car unless you have a key with the right transponder in it and that transponder is known to the ECU. So you'd have to bring a key that works on the door, open the door, teach that key to the ECU (or swap out the whole thing) and then drive off with the car. But it was all done in a couple of minutes at most. It's 8 years ago now or so and I'm still looking for it, every time I see a long wheelbase silvergray VW with a camper roof my head turns all by itself to check the roof raises at the back (which is a very rare combination).
    - kube-system 3y ago
      Yes, there are also anti-theft features built into electronics on cars too. (There's also frustrating anti-theft features built into mechanical parts on cars too, e.g. locking lug nuts, fiddly key mechanisms, parts with hard to access or nonexistent fasteners, etc) But also, most vehicles don't really technically have ECUs anymore, despite that name sticking around in common use. Most stuff in the past 30 years has a PCM, because there's a lot of features that makes sense to coordinate between the engine and transmission in a modern car. Even back in the 90's heyday of EFI engine tuning, one often had to be conscious of which transmission their "ECU" was expecting, because some transmission features were staring to get integrated into the engine control logic. The simplest explanation for the missing van is a thief with a tow truck :). e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcE8nmDNEDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcE8nmDNEDw
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Your explanation may well be the right one, never figured on that but it makes good sense. The transmission issue bit me a while ago, I had a transmission rebuilt and as a part of the service they replaced an electronics board that had some exposure to lubricant on account of a broken seal. But it was keyed to the engine of the car and we had a really hard time getting the car to recognize the rebuilt transmission, in the end the old board was put back in and everything worked flawlessly. But that was a ton of extra work. ('97 MB E-class kombi). Lesson learned there, 'if it works don't fix it'.
jancsika 3y ago
> And, dealer only parts? That's hardly an 'electronics' issue. If resistance differs among any of six coils, halt. That sounds like a software issue to me. It prevented him from replacing a single faulty coil, and required him to buy and replace all six at the same time. So that's dinging him with dealer part markup plus 5x the dealer part price!
- kube-system 3y ago
  I am saying that "dealer parts" aren't a frustration that is caused by electronics. They're caused by the aftermarket not making them. The design of Nissan's fault detection doesn't have anything to do with it being a dealer part. Something dumb like a cupholder is 99% of the time going to be a dealer only part. And on top of all of that, it's not like 'electronics' is enabling Nissan to force you replace all the coils. Automakers have done this mechanically for decades too. Just make it a single part: https://www.amazon.com/ENA-Compatible-Econoline-Thunderbird-Replacement/dp/B0172INQRG https://www.amazon.com/ENA-Compatible-Econoline-Thunderbird-...

jacquesm 3y ago

In the case of drivetrain parts that may well be an anti-theft measure to make it harder for chopshops to sell drivetrain parts from stolen vehicles.

kube-system 3y ago
Drivetrain parts are the easy things to find in the aftermarket, because they're wear parts, and people have to replace them to make the car go, so they're profitable to make. The kind of stuff that's hard to find in the aftermarket are things like oddball interior parts that don't need regular replacing.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, true. But what I meant (and failed to explain, apparently) that for instance a gearbox can be paired to a particular ECU and that the manufacturer does that to stop the gearbox from being sold separately from the engine, which makes it harder for a chopshop to do its thing because and engine without a serial number is kind of suspect but a gearbox (which, especially for a larger car can be quite expensive) would often be overlooked during an inspection. By tying the two together it now becomes mandatory to not only swap out the gearbox but also the engine (or the ECU, but that's not all that easy either). I've had a VW van stolen right from in front of my house and to this day it's a mystery to me how they did it, there was no glass so they must have had a key or a way to open the vehicle and those are fairly solid. You can't start the car unless you have a key with the right transponder in it and that transponder is known to the ECU. So you'd have to bring a key that works on the door, open the door, teach that key to the ECU (or swap out the whole thing) and then drive off with the car. But it was all done in a couple of minutes at most. It's 8 years ago now or so and I'm still looking for it, every time I see a long wheelbase silvergray VW with a camper roof my head turns all by itself to check the roof raises at the back (which is a very rare combination).
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Yes, there are also anti-theft features built into electronics on cars too. (There's also frustrating anti-theft features built into mechanical parts on cars too, e.g. locking lug nuts, fiddly key mechanisms, parts with hard to access or nonexistent fasteners, etc) But also, most vehicles don't really technically have ECUs anymore, despite that name sticking around in common use. Most stuff in the past 30 years has a PCM, because there's a lot of features that makes sense to coordinate between the engine and transmission in a modern car. Even back in the 90's heyday of EFI engine tuning, one often had to be conscious of which transmission their "ECU" was expecting, because some transmission features were staring to get integrated into the engine control logic. The simplest explanation for the missing van is a thief with a tow truck :). e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcE8nmDNEDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcE8nmDNEDw
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Your explanation may well be the right one, never figured on that but it makes good sense. The transmission issue bit me a while ago, I had a transmission rebuilt and as a part of the service they replaced an electronics board that had some exposure to lubricant on account of a broken seal. But it was keyed to the engine of the car and we had a really hard time getting the car to recognize the rebuilt transmission, in the end the old board was put back in and everything worked flawlessly. But that was a ton of extra work. ('97 MB E-class kombi). Lesson learned there, 'if it works don't fix it'.

jancsika 3y ago

> And, dealer only parts? That's hardly an 'electronics' issue. If resistance differs among any of six coils, halt. That sounds like a software issue to me. It prevented him from replacing a single faulty coil, and required him to buy and replace all six at the same time. So that's dinging him with dealer part markup plus 5x the dealer part price!

kube-system 3y ago
I am saying that "dealer parts" aren't a frustration that is caused by electronics. They're caused by the aftermarket not making them. The design of Nissan's fault detection doesn't have anything to do with it being a dealer part. Something dumb like a cupholder is 99% of the time going to be a dealer only part. And on top of all of that, it's not like 'electronics' is enabling Nissan to force you replace all the coils. Automakers have done this mechanically for decades too. Just make it a single part: https://www.amazon.com/ENA-Compatible-Econoline-Thunderbird-Replacement/dp/B0172INQRG https://www.amazon.com/ENA-Compatible-Econoline-Thunderbird-...