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> 5.9+(grading for rock climbing, this being very difficult) can you provide more context on this? this just seems a bit odd to me as a casual indoor climber.

> 5.9+(grading for rock climbing, this being very difficult) can you provide more context on this? this just seems a bit odd to me as a casual indoor climber. a 5.9 route isn't the easiest, but most of the holds are jugs and you can do the whole thing statically. a generally athletic person could probably climb a 5.9 in their first few visits to the gym. I can definitely imagine that climbing a very long 5.9 route in full weather gear would be exhausting, but I wouldn't expect a world class mountaineer to find it technically challenging.

killerbeluga 3y ago
5.9 in the gym and 5.9 outdoors are wildly different levels of difficulty. Depending on location an outdoor 5.9 could be the equivalent of anything from a 5.11a to a 5.12 and in addition you’re on lead which adds another significant level of difficulty.
- runsWphotons 3y ago
  I climb the same in the gym on lead as outside. I think this is being exaggerated in this thread or its something specific to bay area or something.
  - matsur 3y ago
    Sport vs trad grades outdoors are very different animals.
zrezzed 3y ago
Sure. Most of my experience is in California, but I've found the grading differences from region to region to be just large as from out of state or international. I climb 5.11c+ comfortably in the gym. I can barely lead a short Yosemite 5.8 outdoors; it's terrifyingly more difficult. That's a bit on the high side of a delta, but still typical. I would say the difference is 75%+ in the scales simply not being the same. For the same grade, the holds would be far smaller, positions much more technical, often far more sustained, etc. The other ~25% is the environment is much more challenging, even with perfect weather at sea level: route finding is harder, you have to manage gear, leading is scary, etc. I've done a few high Sierra climbs. Grades there are little softer, and my limit is probably ~5.7
- bryananderson 3y ago
  For what it’s worth, there is also a wide variance in grading between different indoor gyms and different outdoor climbing areas. Yosemite grades are notoriously hard; the most popular gym chain in California (which I love!) grades are notoriously soft. YMMV at other gyms and at other outdoor crags. At the end of the day it’s a subjective guide, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the numbers.
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    There's also the factor for people who climb inside a lot that they have very inefficient movements outside. Because the grips aren't as obvious, a lot of effort is wasted looking for placements that would be immediate indoors.
    - scoot 3y ago
      "Grips"? I guess you mean "holds" (indoors). "Placements"? That's where you place gear, not your fingers, and you don't place gear in climbing gyms. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but pretending to have knowledge of something you know nothing about is a real problem on HN (and the internet in general). Best to say nothing than make a fool of yourself – something I'm still learning.
      - InitialLastName 3y ago
        > Best to say nothing than make a fool of yourself – something I'm still learning. I love seeing people plumb the depths of irony this way.
      - Cpoll 3y ago
        Alternatively, they speak a different language with different terminology and are translating. I know a few climbing terms in French and they're quite different. What would be helpful is commenting on whether their assertion is correct or not w.r.t efficiency.
        3y ago
bhickey 3y ago
5.9+ doesn't mean "harder than 5.9," it's a specific grade of indeterminate difficulty. YDS used to top out at 5.9 before 10a and the gang were added. Any climb that's graded 5.9+ pre-dates the extension of YDS beyond 5.9.
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  Unfortunately, some gyms are now using 5.9+ to mean a grade between 5.9 and 5.10a, which is very different than the traditional meaning of 5.9+.
dpc050505 3y ago
I've climbed v6 in the gym and 11c sport routes outside. There are 5.6 granite pitches that absolutely kick my ass. The sandbagged grades are very real in the mountains, and the style of climbing is totally different from whatever you see in the gym (flaring offwidth cracks are my weakness, the only ''gym'' I saw that had anything like it was a shed owned by a guy who made first ascents in Li Ming).
- sulam 3y ago
  What's a 5.6 route you've felt challenged on? And was it the runout that did it, or the actual physical difficulty of the moves? I ask because I've done a lot of climbing outside and I never ran across something that was graded 5.6 but that was as physically demanding as a V6. I have climbed long, highly runout 5.6 that required good mental fortitude.

killerbeluga 3y ago

5.9 in the gym and 5.9 outdoors are wildly different levels of difficulty. Depending on location an outdoor 5.9 could be the equivalent of anything from a 5.11a to a 5.12 and in addition you’re on lead which adds another significant level of difficulty.

runsWphotons 3y ago
I climb the same in the gym on lead as outside. I think this is being exaggerated in this thread or its something specific to bay area or something.
- matsur 3y ago
  Sport vs trad grades outdoors are very different animals.

zrezzed 3y ago

Sure. Most of my experience is in California, but I've found the grading differences from region to region to be just large as from out of state or international. I climb 5.11c+ comfortably in the gym. I can barely lead a short Yosemite 5.8 outdoors; it's terrifyingly more difficult. That's a bit on the high side of a delta, but still typical. I would say the difference is 75%+ in the scales simply not being the same. For the same grade, the holds would be far smaller, positions much more technical, often far more sustained, etc. The other ~25% is the environment is much more challenging, even with perfect weather at sea level: route finding is harder, you have to manage gear, leading is scary, etc. I've done a few high Sierra climbs. Grades there are little softer, and my limit is probably ~5.7

bryananderson 3y ago
For what it’s worth, there is also a wide variance in grading between different indoor gyms and different outdoor climbing areas. Yosemite grades are notoriously hard; the most popular gym chain in California (which I love!) grades are notoriously soft. YMMV at other gyms and at other outdoor crags. At the end of the day it’s a subjective guide, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the numbers.
- VHRanger 3y ago
  There's also the factor for people who climb inside a lot that they have very inefficient movements outside. Because the grips aren't as obvious, a lot of effort is wasted looking for placements that would be immediate indoors.
  - scoot 3y ago
    "Grips"? I guess you mean "holds" (indoors). "Placements"? That's where you place gear, not your fingers, and you don't place gear in climbing gyms. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but pretending to have knowledge of something you know nothing about is a real problem on HN (and the internet in general). Best to say nothing than make a fool of yourself – something I'm still learning.
    - InitialLastName 3y ago
      > Best to say nothing than make a fool of yourself – something I'm still learning. I love seeing people plumb the depths of irony this way.
    - Cpoll 3y ago
      Alternatively, they speak a different language with different terminology and are translating. I know a few climbing terms in French and they're quite different. What would be helpful is commenting on whether their assertion is correct or not w.r.t efficiency.
      - 3y ago

bhickey 3y ago

5.9+ doesn't mean "harder than 5.9," it's a specific grade of indeterminate difficulty. YDS used to top out at 5.9 before 10a and the gang were added. Any climb that's graded 5.9+ pre-dates the extension of YDS beyond 5.9.

kdmccormick 3y ago
Unfortunately, some gyms are now using 5.9+ to mean a grade between 5.9 and 5.10a, which is very different than the traditional meaning of 5.9+.

dpc050505 3y ago

I've climbed v6 in the gym and 11c sport routes outside. There are 5.6 granite pitches that absolutely kick my ass. The sandbagged grades are very real in the mountains, and the style of climbing is totally different from whatever you see in the gym (flaring offwidth cracks are my weakness, the only ''gym'' I saw that had anything like it was a shed owned by a guy who made first ascents in Li Ming).

sulam 3y ago
What's a 5.6 route you've felt challenged on? And was it the runout that did it, or the actual physical difficulty of the moves? I ask because I've done a lot of climbing outside and I never ran across something that was graded 5.6 but that was as physically demanding as a V6. I have climbed long, highly runout 5.6 that required good mental fortitude.