5 ms·

Call me a bleeding heart but child labor is an 'actual' problem. You can keep destructing societal issues until you reinvent the universe from scratch. It may b

by janice1999 3y ago

Call me a bleeding heart but child labor is an 'actual' problem. You can keep destructing societal issues until you reinvent the universe from scratch. It may be difficult to solve global poverty but it's not a lot to ask extremely profitable companies to enforce the supply chain checks they've committed to.

josu 3y ago
Child labor tends to go away with the increase in GDP.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Children go away when women are empowered. To starve the world of child labor, empower women. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#empowerment-of-women https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#empowerment-of-wom...
  - MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
    So your solution to not treating children baddly is to not have children? Seems a bit strange instead of just ... you know pay people a descent wage so they don't have to put they children in arms way
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      As my uncouth grandfather used to say: “Wishes in one hand, shit in the other, which will fill first?” These children work because they have no choice. They are paid these wages because they can’t make more. I suggest empowering women who don’t want children to not have them. If we look at the developed world, it is clear the total fertility rate will settle far below replacement rate (2.1) and child labor will dry up when women are educated and have robust access to family planning. Perpetual labor shortages are a better outcome than surplus labor and lives of suffering, most especially children suffering. By all means, open your wallet to pay these kids a living wage. I’ll even help you bootstrap the direct cash transfer mechanisms via mobile payments if you have deep pockets. But that is unlikely to happen. Hope is not a strategy. https://www.unicef.org/protection/child-labour https://www.unicef.org/protection/child-labour ("Nearly 1 in 10 children are subjected to child labour worldwide, with some forced into hazardous work through trafficking.") https://ourworldindata.org/child-labor https://ourworldindata.org/child-labor ("The International Labour Organisation states in its latest World Report on Child Labour (2013) that there are around 265 million working children in the world—almost 17 per cent of the worldwide child population. According to the publicly available data discussed in more detail below, Sub-Saharan Africa is the region where child labour is most prevalent.") https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-babies-children https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-... ("You can’t even pay people to have more kids") https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198592/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198592/ ("Challenges and perspectives of child labor")
      - MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
        I am gonna venture to guess that you never really either interacted with people from those populations. > I suggest empowering women who don’t want children to not have them. Let's first get this out of the way. The men don't want children at equal rate. No need for grand plan about empowering women (what ever that means beside just increasing everyone, both men and women economical outlooks) : just make contraceptive and sexual education available. > If we look at the developed world, it is clear the total fertility rate will settle far below replacement rate (2.1) and child labor will dry up when women are educated and have robust access to family planning. Correlation and causation etc...etc... I might introduce you to orthodox jews, some Mormons and Muslim communities which don't really follow those models. > By all means, open your wallet to pay these kids a living wage. ahah yes, personal solution to systemic problems... Following this logic, we should all be silent about everything. > Perpetual labor shortages are a better outcome than surplus labor and lives of suffering, most especially children suffering. I don't buy the premise and this sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Just treat people decently and don't participate in system which involve children doing back breaking jobs. > Hope is not a strategy. And whatever you are proposing is ? The idea that it's easier to somehow curb the population growth a whole group of nations instead of just having proper international laws to regulate child labour seems both crazy and reversed. Polution control won't solve child labor, instead child labour, women right and polution growth will be solve by better economical outlooks. And that start by having people actually make living wages... In the final anlysis the problem is not that deep. To paraphrase Gates, those conditions continue because the market wants it, and the public opinions doesnt particularly care. You are wellcome not to care, but to invent poorly constructed argument to make you sleep better at night.
- otikik 3y ago
  The US still has laws protecting child labor in agriculture. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181472559/child-labor-farms-agriculture-human-rights-congress https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181472559/child-labor-farms-... (And slavery in prison. But one problem at a time)
qez2 3y ago
[dead]
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> child labor is an 'actual' problem I think they meant root, not actual. Fixing the child labor problem on its own is unlikely to improve these kids' lives.
bell-cot 3y ago
If (as the article states) the total value of the cocoa that Murina's entire family managed to harvest, in an entire year, was $115 - that sounds like destitute, desperate poverty to me. If actually living in such circumstances, ~all humans put their kids to work, and lie as needed to survive. And if the "child labor certification" inspectors you send are anything resembling decent human beings, then they will send back endless lies in their reports, saying "no child labor here" - because they prefer lying to seeing yet more farm family members die of starvation, because the families could not afford luxuries like food.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  I would agree with this sentiment if they this was voluntary labor. Others have pointed out that trafficking, beatings, and forced labor are also components.
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    Reaction: If I read that $Company's supply chain features trafficked / beaten / forced labor, then I'll be reaching for the big red "REJECT" stamp before I even get to the part about the ages of the victims.
- rurp 3y ago
  Yeah, exactly. Under these types of conditions most kids will be starving and living in dangerous conditions. Not working doesn't mean they get to go to school or to a playground, it means their family is even more starving.
- KPGv2 3y ago
  So if child labor was banned, it is your contention that chocolatiers would just shutter their doors because they can't find labor anymore? You can't conceive of the possibility that they'd hire adults at a higher wage? Or raise prices for consumers in the developed world? You're basically saying it's OK for American companies to hire undocumented workers because the alternative is everyone starves.
  - 3y ago
mopsi 3y ago
In Europe and the US, it wasn't too long ago either when families could only afford to send some of their children to school. Others had to work from a very early age to support the family. If you ban child labor without offering anything to supplement the lost income, then you're just harming them more. I think it would be better to frame the issue as why so little of the profit made from their work reaches them. It's insane to see cocoa farmers so poor that they've never tasted chocolate, as can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0
- abracadaniel 3y ago
  If you ban child labor the jobs don't go away. The process still requires the same amount of labor. So, employment will increase, and with the higher labor demand, so will wages. Either way, the product is profitable and in high demand so the same or more money will be spent producing it. Child labor is one of the reasons why so little of the profit from their work reaches them. They're subsidizing the industry by sacrificing their children to increase labor availability.
  - NumberWangMan 3y ago
    Everyone is better off if children don’t work, but if everyone else has their children work and you don’t, you lose. Sounds like moloch! (I’m ignoring corporate profits and consumer prices for simplicity-but I think most of us would be happy if child labor was banned even if it meant higher prices)
    - chrisco255 3y ago
      They're only "better off" if there's better things for those children to be doing. If schools are not available, then what? If there's no adults available to supervise the children (because they're doing labor themselves), then what? For most of human history, child labor was common practice. It's purely a first world, modern thing that you can truly dial back child labor.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
colechristensen 3y ago
From the ages from about 5 to 18 American children are forced to do office work for 7 hours a day five days a week in conditions that approximate a minimum security prison followed by often several hours of more work to do at home. Is the only reason you think that isn't "child labor" because no one is directly paying them for their work or that the work is "good for them"? Plenty of kids would argue picking fruit was more valuable than algebra homework. Having kids working a little isn't necessarily bad, it is the conditions under which they work which is important but more subtle issue. In regions of extreme poverty it isn't even the conditions that are often the root problem but the foreign exploiters of the extreme poverty failing to pay a fair wage for human work. >"I feel sad. I want to be, like, a medical doctor," Munira said. "But my family doesn't have money for school." It's much easier for corporate overlords to focus on cheap issues like child labor and then make the appearances of trying to do something about it... when the causes of child labor are more like "you pay my family so little I can't afford to go to school and nobody else either so the nearest school is an hour away". If you give people the opportunity to barely stay alive they'll fix these things themselves.
- otikik 3y ago
  I am sorry you had such a horrible experience at school. I’m not denying that what you say can happen, but for contrast, my 7yo son enjoys his school greatly and even misses it during holidays.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Is there something to suggest that school was a horrible experience for him? My only takeaway is that it is work that is pushed upon children, which is undeniably true. In a similar vein to your anecdote, and pertinent the larger topic, I greatly enjoyed harvest when I was 7 and always missed it when it was over. That's why I became a farmer in adulthood – and I still feel the same way about it. Work (even paid work) doesn't mean unenjoyable.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  > Is the only reason you think that isn't "child labor" because no one is directly paying them for their work or that the work is "good for them"? Yes, these are very significant differences. Children are also given time off with holidays, time to play, etc. School disgusts me, personally, but it's not even close to child labor.

josu 3y ago

Child labor tends to go away with the increase in GDP.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Children go away when women are empowered. To starve the world of child labor, empower women. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#empowerment-of-women https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#empowerment-of-wom...
- MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
  So your solution to not treating children baddly is to not have children? Seems a bit strange instead of just ... you know pay people a descent wage so they don't have to put they children in arms way
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    As my uncouth grandfather used to say: “Wishes in one hand, shit in the other, which will fill first?” These children work because they have no choice. They are paid these wages because they can’t make more. I suggest empowering women who don’t want children to not have them. If we look at the developed world, it is clear the total fertility rate will settle far below replacement rate (2.1) and child labor will dry up when women are educated and have robust access to family planning. Perpetual labor shortages are a better outcome than surplus labor and lives of suffering, most especially children suffering. By all means, open your wallet to pay these kids a living wage. I’ll even help you bootstrap the direct cash transfer mechanisms via mobile payments if you have deep pockets. But that is unlikely to happen. Hope is not a strategy. https://www.unicef.org/protection/child-labour https://www.unicef.org/protection/child-labour ("Nearly 1 in 10 children are subjected to child labour worldwide, with some forced into hazardous work through trafficking.") https://ourworldindata.org/child-labor https://ourworldindata.org/child-labor ("The International Labour Organisation states in its latest World Report on Child Labour (2013) that there are around 265 million working children in the world—almost 17 per cent of the worldwide child population. According to the publicly available data discussed in more detail below, Sub-Saharan Africa is the region where child labour is most prevalent.") https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-babies-children https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-... ("You can’t even pay people to have more kids") https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198592/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198592/ ("Challenges and perspectives of child labor")
    - MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
      I am gonna venture to guess that you never really either interacted with people from those populations. > I suggest empowering women who don’t want children to not have them. Let's first get this out of the way. The men don't want children at equal rate. No need for grand plan about empowering women (what ever that means beside just increasing everyone, both men and women economical outlooks) : just make contraceptive and sexual education available. > If we look at the developed world, it is clear the total fertility rate will settle far below replacement rate (2.1) and child labor will dry up when women are educated and have robust access to family planning. Correlation and causation etc...etc... I might introduce you to orthodox jews, some Mormons and Muslim communities which don't really follow those models. > By all means, open your wallet to pay these kids a living wage. ahah yes, personal solution to systemic problems... Following this logic, we should all be silent about everything. > Perpetual labor shortages are a better outcome than surplus labor and lives of suffering, most especially children suffering. I don't buy the premise and this sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Just treat people decently and don't participate in system which involve children doing back breaking jobs. > Hope is not a strategy. And whatever you are proposing is ? The idea that it's easier to somehow curb the population growth a whole group of nations instead of just having proper international laws to regulate child labour seems both crazy and reversed. Polution control won't solve child labor, instead child labour, women right and polution growth will be solve by better economical outlooks. And that start by having people actually make living wages... In the final anlysis the problem is not that deep. To paraphrase Gates, those conditions continue because the market wants it, and the public opinions doesnt particularly care. You are wellcome not to care, but to invent poorly constructed argument to make you sleep better at night.
otikik 3y ago
The US still has laws protecting child labor in agriculture. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181472559/child-labor-farms-agriculture-human-rights-congress https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181472559/child-labor-farms-... (And slavery in prison. But one problem at a time)

qez2 3y ago

[dead]

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> child labor is an 'actual' problem I think they meant root, not actual. Fixing the child labor problem on its own is unlikely to improve these kids' lives.

bell-cot 3y ago

If (as the article states) the total value of the cocoa that Murina's entire family managed to harvest, in an entire year, was $115 - that sounds like destitute, desperate poverty to me. If actually living in such circumstances, ~all humans put their kids to work, and lie as needed to survive. And if the "child labor certification" inspectors you send are anything resembling decent human beings, then they will send back endless lies in their reports, saying "no child labor here" - because they prefer lying to seeing yet more farm family members die of starvation, because the families could not afford luxuries like food.

tcbawo 3y ago
I would agree with this sentiment if they this was voluntary labor. Others have pointed out that trafficking, beatings, and forced labor are also components.
- bell-cot 3y ago
  Reaction: If I read that $Company's supply chain features trafficked / beaten / forced labor, then I'll be reaching for the big red "REJECT" stamp before I even get to the part about the ages of the victims.
rurp 3y ago
Yeah, exactly. Under these types of conditions most kids will be starving and living in dangerous conditions. Not working doesn't mean they get to go to school or to a playground, it means their family is even more starving.
KPGv2 3y ago
So if child labor was banned, it is your contention that chocolatiers would just shutter their doors because they can't find labor anymore? You can't conceive of the possibility that they'd hire adults at a higher wage? Or raise prices for consumers in the developed world? You're basically saying it's OK for American companies to hire undocumented workers because the alternative is everyone starves.
- 3y ago

mopsi 3y ago

In Europe and the US, it wasn't too long ago either when families could only afford to send some of their children to school. Others had to work from a very early age to support the family. If you ban child labor without offering anything to supplement the lost income, then you're just harming them more. I think it would be better to frame the issue as why so little of the profit made from their work reaches them. It's insane to see cocoa farmers so poor that they've never tasted chocolate, as can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0

abracadaniel 3y ago
If you ban child labor the jobs don't go away. The process still requires the same amount of labor. So, employment will increase, and with the higher labor demand, so will wages. Either way, the product is profitable and in high demand so the same or more money will be spent producing it. Child labor is one of the reasons why so little of the profit from their work reaches them. They're subsidizing the industry by sacrificing their children to increase labor availability.
- NumberWangMan 3y ago
  Everyone is better off if children don’t work, but if everyone else has their children work and you don’t, you lose. Sounds like moloch! (I’m ignoring corporate profits and consumer prices for simplicity-but I think most of us would be happy if child labor was banned even if it meant higher prices)
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    They're only "better off" if there's better things for those children to be doing. If schools are not available, then what? If there's no adults available to supervise the children (because they're doing labor themselves), then what? For most of human history, child labor was common practice. It's purely a first world, modern thing that you can truly dial back child labor.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago

colechristensen 3y ago

From the ages from about 5 to 18 American children are forced to do office work for 7 hours a day five days a week in conditions that approximate a minimum security prison followed by often several hours of more work to do at home. Is the only reason you think that isn't "child labor" because no one is directly paying them for their work or that the work is "good for them"? Plenty of kids would argue picking fruit was more valuable than algebra homework. Having kids working a little isn't necessarily bad, it is the conditions under which they work which is important but more subtle issue. In regions of extreme poverty it isn't even the conditions that are often the root problem but the foreign exploiters of the extreme poverty failing to pay a fair wage for human work. >"I feel sad. I want to be, like, a medical doctor," Munira said. "But my family doesn't have money for school." It's much easier for corporate overlords to focus on cheap issues like child labor and then make the appearances of trying to do something about it... when the causes of child labor are more like "you pay my family so little I can't afford to go to school and nobody else either so the nearest school is an hour away". If you give people the opportunity to barely stay alive they'll fix these things themselves.

otikik 3y ago
I am sorry you had such a horrible experience at school. I’m not denying that what you say can happen, but for contrast, my 7yo son enjoys his school greatly and even misses it during holidays.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Is there something to suggest that school was a horrible experience for him? My only takeaway is that it is work that is pushed upon children, which is undeniably true. In a similar vein to your anecdote, and pertinent the larger topic, I greatly enjoyed harvest when I was 7 and always missed it when it was over. That's why I became a farmer in adulthood – and I still feel the same way about it. Work (even paid work) doesn't mean unenjoyable.
insanitybit 3y ago
> Is the only reason you think that isn't "child labor" because no one is directly paying them for their work or that the work is "good for them"? Yes, these are very significant differences. Children are also given time off with holidays, time to play, etc. School disgusts me, personally, but it's not even close to child labor.