4 ms·

This isn't a problem of only websites. Should mobile and desktop ecosystems start making a big move for thin-client like the browser? Should a simple app like A

This isn't a problem of only websites. Should mobile and desktop ecosystems start making a big move for thin-client like the browser? Should a simple app like Apple Reminders or Google Tasks have the GUI pause if there are delays or connection issues?

vemv 3y ago
Read-only access for coarse-grained pages (as opposed to building a fine-grained ad-hoc DB) seems something reasonable (and easy) to cache for any kind of frontend. That would allow offline viewing to a variety of apps, regardless of approach. Last time I checked Google Docs doesn't primarily allow editing offline files, which hints how hard it is to support substantial features beyond mere reading.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  That could just hint at complex legacy code that painted Docs into a corner and prevented them from easily supporting that feature without a full rewrite. No doubt the problem is challenging but just because Google didn't do it for docs does not mean it's necessarily some Herculean feat.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- threatofrain 3y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, Google Docs has allowed offline editing for a very long time? You might have to enable an extension that comes default in Chrome. For offline-capable rich text collab there's also Notion or Apple Notes.
pphysch 3y ago
The authorization story in letting the client upload a new version of the application database (after a drop in connectivity) sounds like a total nightmare. I just don't think there are "embarrassingly client-side, but also needs a server for some reason" web apps that would benefit from this in the real world. Even Google's or Apple's version of the simple Todo app has a lot of (useful) integrations, which means having some level of trust with the client.
whilenot-dev 3y ago
Agree, it's dealing with distributed systems all over and handling a very limited sandbox on the client side. I think my sibling comments are completely underestimating the complexity and the market value here. Apple Reminders or Google Tasks are customer facing applications for single individuals, nobody but a single client is working at a time on their own data. Businesses on the other hand want their data at a central location and personnel close to the tasks using client applications. They don't want any reliability issues in the client-server-communication blocking the work being done. Heck, businesses want to be able to throw more people at the same tasks and we call it collaborative editing.
theamk 3y ago
> Should a simple app like Apple Reminders or Google Tasks have the GUI pause if there are delays or connection issues? Yes, they should, because I _need_ good feedback for connection issues. I have not used those two specific apps, but for other "online first" apps it's such a common problem. Open an app, type a note, switch back to a different app (or turn off your phone, or close laptop lid). Later on, you want to access the note and it's not there. Why? the authors decided to be "smart" and "offline first" and made sync in background, with no feedback, or with heavily delayed feedback... and I was walking out of wifi range when i was typing the note, so connection was spotty. The OP's demo TODO app has exactly the same problem - no indication when the data is already uploaded. So please, if your real goal is collaboration, let user know when you cannot perform it, don't sweep it under the rug hoping the things would get uploaded eventually.
- carlsverre 3y ago
  This is such solid feedback - and a frustration I have with offline first apps. In particular Obsidian sync has this problem which is made worse because it doesn't seem to want to sync in the background. (other than that I love Obsidian - just would be nice to get some more feedback) In regard to the TODO demo - I should totally add that. Thanks :) https://github.com/orbitinghail/sqlsync/issues/31 https://github.com/orbitinghail/sqlsync/issues/31
- slaymaker1907 3y ago
  I think my preference is that it works instantly, but have some sort of indicator that it is syncing working. Users should be able to see when it is safe to assume state is consistent with what is on the server.
  - Multicomp 3y ago
    And thus we get back to the need for Exchange Active sync icon from the Pocket PC era! I have finally lived long enough to see a full tech cycle go from new hotness to duh everyone does it this way to a good if boring option to that's so lame and worse, legacy, to what's that?
- 3y ago

vemv 3y ago

Read-only access for coarse-grained pages (as opposed to building a fine-grained ad-hoc DB) seems something reasonable (and easy) to cache for any kind of frontend. That would allow offline viewing to a variety of apps, regardless of approach. Last time I checked Google Docs doesn't primarily allow editing offline files, which hints how hard it is to support substantial features beyond mere reading.

chrisco255 3y ago
That could just hint at complex legacy code that painted Docs into a corner and prevented them from easily supporting that feature without a full rewrite. No doubt the problem is challenging but just because Google didn't do it for docs does not mean it's necessarily some Herculean feat.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
threatofrain 3y ago
If I'm not mistaken, Google Docs has allowed offline editing for a very long time? You might have to enable an extension that comes default in Chrome. For offline-capable rich text collab there's also Notion or Apple Notes.

pphysch 3y ago

The authorization story in letting the client upload a new version of the application database (after a drop in connectivity) sounds like a total nightmare. I just don't think there are "embarrassingly client-side, but also needs a server for some reason" web apps that would benefit from this in the real world. Even Google's or Apple's version of the simple Todo app has a lot of (useful) integrations, which means having some level of trust with the client.

whilenot-dev 3y ago

Agree, it's dealing with distributed systems all over and handling a very limited sandbox on the client side. I think my sibling comments are completely underestimating the complexity and the market value here. Apple Reminders or Google Tasks are customer facing applications for single individuals, nobody but a single client is working at a time on their own data. Businesses on the other hand want their data at a central location and personnel close to the tasks using client applications. They don't want any reliability issues in the client-server-communication blocking the work being done. Heck, businesses want to be able to throw more people at the same tasks and we call it collaborative editing.

theamk 3y ago

> Should a simple app like Apple Reminders or Google Tasks have the GUI pause if there are delays or connection issues? Yes, they should, because I _need_ good feedback for connection issues. I have not used those two specific apps, but for other "online first" apps it's such a common problem. Open an app, type a note, switch back to a different app (or turn off your phone, or close laptop lid). Later on, you want to access the note and it's not there. Why? the authors decided to be "smart" and "offline first" and made sync in background, with no feedback, or with heavily delayed feedback... and I was walking out of wifi range when i was typing the note, so connection was spotty. The OP's demo TODO app has exactly the same problem - no indication when the data is already uploaded. So please, if your real goal is collaboration, let user know when you cannot perform it, don't sweep it under the rug hoping the things would get uploaded eventually.

carlsverre 3y ago
This is such solid feedback - and a frustration I have with offline first apps. In particular Obsidian sync has this problem which is made worse because it doesn't seem to want to sync in the background. (other than that I love Obsidian - just would be nice to get some more feedback) In regard to the TODO demo - I should totally add that. Thanks :) https://github.com/orbitinghail/sqlsync/issues/31 https://github.com/orbitinghail/sqlsync/issues/31
slaymaker1907 3y ago
I think my preference is that it works instantly, but have some sort of indicator that it is syncing working. Users should be able to see when it is safe to assume state is consistent with what is on the server.
- Multicomp 3y ago
  And thus we get back to the need for Exchange Active sync icon from the Pocket PC era! I have finally lived long enough to see a full tech cycle go from new hotness to duh everyone does it this way to a good if boring option to that's so lame and worse, legacy, to what's that?
3y ago