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> Munira, 15, is one of those children. She has worked in the cocoa fields since she was 5 years old. Education is a luxury, with her school an hour-long walk a

> Munira, 15, is one of those children. She has worked in the cocoa fields since she was 5 years old. Education is a luxury, with her school an hour-long walk away and transportation options expensive. Last year, her family harvested only one bag of decent-quality cocoa. A 140-pound bag of the product fetches only about $115. I think child labor is actually a symptom of a deeper problem and cracking down on child labor without providing better financial support for the families will actually lead to worse problems. Reading this, it doesn’t sound like if the child wasn’t working harvesting cocoa, she would be in school studying. Likely, either her family would starve or she would be be doing more dangerous work (perhaps even prostitution).

benj111 3y ago
150 years ago child labour in the West was common. If you can barely afford food then everyone needs to work to earn money. I'm kind of in two minds, from their point of view there's probably nothing wrong, but that's incompatible with our morals. But then we obviously aren't willing to pay for those morals.
- User23 3y ago
  Child labor is still not uncommon in agricultural communities in the USA. I believe the federal law is age 12 and up for farm work. And de facto if not de jure there is no age limit on children working their own family’s farm. Granted one might call that chores rather than labor. And the minimum age to babysit is as low as 8 based on a quick search.
  - benj111 3y ago
    Yes. I was thinking more, chimney sweeping and factory work. My point was we were poor then and had different standards. They probably have those same standards as we had for the same reasons. We have different standards now, so it's on us to do something if we want to.
  - tdb7893 3y ago
    It depends what you mean by child labor. My experience is that the children help on the farm but for the most part do school full time until at least their latter teenage years. It's pretty different than the child labor in the article.
    - otikik 3y ago
      I recommend you watch John Oliver’s episode linked above. It is just as bad.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    lets not weaken the term 'child labor' in that manner. There's a world of difference between growing up on a farm and 'child labor'. What you're doing is the equivalent of calling someone a pedophile for sleeping with a 17 y/o. It may or may not be appropriate but it sure as shit isn't the same as sleeping with a 10 y/o so lets use different words for them.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- akira2501 3y ago
  Child labor was only outlawed in the 1930s. The exception that still stands today is farm labor. Many states will even let you get a restricted drivers license as early as 15 if you work on a farm. Also, ` They gave her a backpack and schoolbooks with the slogan "I am a child, I play, I go to school."' is one of the most neo-colonial statements I've read in a long time.
the-alchemist 3y ago
This. We would all benefit from more cause and effect analysis in our media. - Let's say we increase prices that we pay cocoa farmers, even double the price - Is this extra enough to send the girl to school an hour away, pay for her books, etc.? If you pay the family more, how do you know they would spend it on the girl's education? Maybe fixing the water well or building a sturdier house is more important. Or paying off debt. - The school is an hour away, the girl might not feel safe being away from home for so long without any adults. She might prefer being with her family. So... boarding school? Are the teachers qualified? (Go read about absentee teachers in Indian schools.) - Also, if cocoa farming becomes more profitable, it might encourage _more_ child labor as parents pull their kids from school to work "on the family farm". - If cocoa farming is profitable enough, it might invite a protection racket. Go Google for Mexican cartels and avocados. Ironically, here in the U.S., we kinda glorify "working on the family farm", expecting kids to help on their parents' farms. Isn't that family doing something similar? I am in no way glorifying child labor. I think it's sad and I wish I could adopt all these children and give them the quality of life I enjoy. But complex problems require complex solutions. Unfortunately, we--humanity as a whole--have not found a universal solution to end human suffering as a whole, even the small subset of misery like child labor. Historically, almost every country that has "developed" into an "industrialized" nation has had a very difficult, dangerous, violent learning curve. Kids in coal mines in the U.S., 18th century Dickensian English was a hellhole...
- bmacho 3y ago
  This not. > - Also, if cocoa farming becomes more profitable, it might encourage _more_ child labor as parents pull their kids from school to work "on the family farm". Wtf. No? Do you pull your kids from school so they can help you at work?
  - all2 3y ago
    > Wtf. No? Do you pull your kids from school so they can help you at work? If I were in a position of "family eats or family doesn't eat" I would be sorely tempted to tap my kids as extra income earners. This isn't a particularly new problem in the world. The West has only gotten stringent on child labor in the last century, and you're seeing other countries coming up that are also struggling with the issue at hand: enough money to feed the family. We're rather privileged in the West in that we don't really struggle for necessities. Even our impoverished have clothing, shelter, and food. We don't really understand what it means to be truly impoverished. Nor do we understand the kinds of decisions a father or mother must make in order to ensure their survival and the survival of their children.
talldatethrow 3y ago
I feel for the kid, but to be realistic it doesn't take several people all year to grow 140 lbs of something. This is just a small portion of all the farming they do, including for themselves to eat.
autoexec 3y ago
This is exactly the same argument that was often used to justify slavery in the US and after all these years it's still not compelling. Ending slavery in the US didn't "lead to worse problems", it was a massive improvement. People who are free may thrive or struggle, but they'll do it without a master which is always an improvement. There are no solutions to those deeper problems that impact people in poverty which would be prevented by freeing them from exploitation. If you want people's situation to improve, why not do both?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dumpsterlid 3y ago
  This really is the most salient point in this entire thread, there are piles of people commenting about this article with literally the same argument that was used to try to kick the can about ending slavery down the road.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> child labor is actually a symptom of a deeper problem It is. But we should see it as a symptom of a problem to be cured. Simply banning procurement would be a mistake, as you observe. But an NGO could be put in place that e.g. pays parents picking cocoa a stipend if they can verify their kids went to school. Put another way, we can use the global consensus that child labour is bad as activation energy to spur and focus the wider reforms that are needed.
adamredwoods 3y ago
Also, to be clear, do we know if it is acceptable for the mother or father bringing the child to work? Was the child helping or actually working (being on a list tells me they were probably employed)? And at what age in a country is it acceptable to begin work? We should not treat all countries and cultures the same through our western perspective.

benj111 3y ago

150 years ago child labour in the West was common. If you can barely afford food then everyone needs to work to earn money. I'm kind of in two minds, from their point of view there's probably nothing wrong, but that's incompatible with our morals. But then we obviously aren't willing to pay for those morals.

User23 3y ago
Child labor is still not uncommon in agricultural communities in the USA. I believe the federal law is age 12 and up for farm work. And de facto if not de jure there is no age limit on children working their own family’s farm. Granted one might call that chores rather than labor. And the minimum age to babysit is as low as 8 based on a quick search.
- benj111 3y ago
  Yes. I was thinking more, chimney sweeping and factory work. My point was we were poor then and had different standards. They probably have those same standards as we had for the same reasons. We have different standards now, so it's on us to do something if we want to.
- tdb7893 3y ago
  It depends what you mean by child labor. My experience is that the children help on the farm but for the most part do school full time until at least their latter teenage years. It's pretty different than the child labor in the article.
  - otikik 3y ago
    I recommend you watch John Oliver’s episode linked above. It is just as bad.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  lets not weaken the term 'child labor' in that manner. There's a world of difference between growing up on a farm and 'child labor'. What you're doing is the equivalent of calling someone a pedophile for sleeping with a 17 y/o. It may or may not be appropriate but it sure as shit isn't the same as sleeping with a 10 y/o so lets use different words for them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
akira2501 3y ago
Child labor was only outlawed in the 1930s. The exception that still stands today is farm labor. Many states will even let you get a restricted drivers license as early as 15 if you work on a farm. Also, ` They gave her a backpack and schoolbooks with the slogan "I am a child, I play, I go to school."' is one of the most neo-colonial statements I've read in a long time.

the-alchemist 3y ago

This. We would all benefit from more cause and effect analysis in our media. - Let's say we increase prices that we pay cocoa farmers, even double the price - Is this extra enough to send the girl to school an hour away, pay for her books, etc.? If you pay the family more, how do you know they would spend it on the girl's education? Maybe fixing the water well or building a sturdier house is more important. Or paying off debt. - The school is an hour away, the girl might not feel safe being away from home for so long without any adults. She might prefer being with her family. So... boarding school? Are the teachers qualified? (Go read about absentee teachers in Indian schools.) - Also, if cocoa farming becomes more profitable, it might encourage _more_ child labor as parents pull their kids from school to work "on the family farm". - If cocoa farming is profitable enough, it might invite a protection racket. Go Google for Mexican cartels and avocados. Ironically, here in the U.S., we kinda glorify "working on the family farm", expecting kids to help on their parents' farms. Isn't that family doing something similar? I am in no way glorifying child labor. I think it's sad and I wish I could adopt all these children and give them the quality of life I enjoy. But complex problems require complex solutions. Unfortunately, we--humanity as a whole--have not found a universal solution to end human suffering as a whole, even the small subset of misery like child labor. Historically, almost every country that has "developed" into an "industrialized" nation has had a very difficult, dangerous, violent learning curve. Kids in coal mines in the U.S., 18th century Dickensian English was a hellhole...

bmacho 3y ago
This not. > - Also, if cocoa farming becomes more profitable, it might encourage _more_ child labor as parents pull their kids from school to work "on the family farm". Wtf. No? Do you pull your kids from school so they can help you at work?
- all2 3y ago
  > Wtf. No? Do you pull your kids from school so they can help you at work? If I were in a position of "family eats or family doesn't eat" I would be sorely tempted to tap my kids as extra income earners. This isn't a particularly new problem in the world. The West has only gotten stringent on child labor in the last century, and you're seeing other countries coming up that are also struggling with the issue at hand: enough money to feed the family. We're rather privileged in the West in that we don't really struggle for necessities. Even our impoverished have clothing, shelter, and food. We don't really understand what it means to be truly impoverished. Nor do we understand the kinds of decisions a father or mother must make in order to ensure their survival and the survival of their children.

talldatethrow 3y ago

I feel for the kid, but to be realistic it doesn't take several people all year to grow 140 lbs of something. This is just a small portion of all the farming they do, including for themselves to eat.

autoexec 3y ago

This is exactly the same argument that was often used to justify slavery in the US and after all these years it's still not compelling. Ending slavery in the US didn't "lead to worse problems", it was a massive improvement. People who are free may thrive or struggle, but they'll do it without a master which is always an improvement. There are no solutions to those deeper problems that impact people in poverty which would be prevented by freeing them from exploitation. If you want people's situation to improve, why not do both?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dumpsterlid 3y ago
This really is the most salient point in this entire thread, there are piles of people commenting about this article with literally the same argument that was used to try to kick the can about ending slavery down the road.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> child labor is actually a symptom of a deeper problem It is. But we should see it as a symptom of a problem to be cured. Simply banning procurement would be a mistake, as you observe. But an NGO could be put in place that e.g. pays parents picking cocoa a stipend if they can verify their kids went to school. Put another way, we can use the global consensus that child labour is bad as activation energy to spur and focus the wider reforms that are needed.

adamredwoods 3y ago

Also, to be clear, do we know if it is acceptable for the mother or father bringing the child to work? Was the child helping or actually working (being on a list tells me they were probably employed)? And at what age in a country is it acceptable to begin work? We should not treat all countries and cultures the same through our western perspective.