4 ms·

AA need not be stationary and the footprint is small (see a Gepard, and there were smaller AA systems, I believe). Anything that has a successful intercept has

AA need not be stationary and the footprint is small (see a Gepard, and there were smaller AA systems, I believe). Anything that has a successful intercept has stuff falling down. For unsuccessful, only laser etc. have nothing falling down. Edit: the link doesn't specifically talk about niche special forces, but rather broader air defense.

runjake 3y ago
1. Gepards are big and not suitable for special operations roles. You can't throw one in a truck and haul it through rough terrain. 2. The Roadrunner system doesn't "fall down", it's designed to land if the intercept is unsuccessful. 3. Roadrunner is designed to be "cheap", compact and re-usable, as much as possible.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  A large part of the Gepard weight/size is armor, not the AA, but yes, not man portable by any means (edit: the gun assembly is still many tons, I'd guess). The linked text talks about defense against cheap drones and cost curves - not about niche special operation air defense. If you have to defend an installation against a hundred cheap drones a week or so, not sure roadrunner is that cost efficient. On 2), yes, but only if the intercept fails kind of completely.
  - hn_throwaway902 3y ago
    @RandomLensman - would be very interested to speak with you. I work with some folks in Ukraine to support defensive tech. chris at ukrainedefensefund dot org
CuriousCosmic 3y ago
I don't really think that's remotely comparable. The Roadrunner is around the size of a person and can launch unsupported from the ground (i.e. sit it upright and press a button on a tablet). The roadrunner nest installations are marginally larger, containing just enough space for a fuel tank (to refuel unsuccessful or cancelled intercept attempts) and power to keep them operating. So in the space that you can fit a Gepard, you can fit lets say 20 roadrunner nests. You can take those in a truck, drive around and scatter them around the site with some camouflaging. If you are only expecting occasional missile/rocket attacks, you can build a net for intercepts that is far wider than you can realistically with stationary or even mobile AA guns. But the real value of it for the customer (special operations) is that you can realistically have 2-4 people carry one in a box by hand or in the back of a jeep and in a matter of minutes, set it up, and shoot down an aircraft (or any other moving target).
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  I get the special operations need. However, 20 roadrunners is 20 successful intercepts at best - if you want to go down cost curves you need really cheap intercepts.
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    I think there are different cost curves though. If you are expecting mass swarms of drones, rockets, and/or missiles, then traditional AA installations make more sense. But if you are expecting only intermittent intercepts then the cost per intercept is probably going to be lower with something like the what Anduril is offering as cursory searches suggest the Roadrunner is going to be priced around 100k-300k per unit. And this fits in nicely with their far cheaper Anvil-M interceptors (low speed, quadcopter interceptors) where anvil would take the ultra cheap drones while Roadrunner takes the high altitude or jet/rocket powered targets.
- luma 3y ago
  All great points and I'll add one - the operator will be far away from the weapons, so even if they are sighted and targeted you minimize human casualties and it won't give up the teams' position.
bluGill 3y ago
AA must be stationary. Even if you can move it you cannot. If your country is at war we know small drones can cheaply reach pretty far in. That means you need AA covering every place anywhere near the front. If you move the AA you risk enemy spies finding out what place is not covered and attacking there. Maybe you can move from my backyard to my neighbor's backyard, but that is about all you can realistically do.

runjake 3y ago

1. Gepards are big and not suitable for special operations roles. You can't throw one in a truck and haul it through rough terrain. 2. The Roadrunner system doesn't "fall down", it's designed to land if the intercept is unsuccessful. 3. Roadrunner is designed to be "cheap", compact and re-usable, as much as possible.

RandomLensman 3y ago
A large part of the Gepard weight/size is armor, not the AA, but yes, not man portable by any means (edit: the gun assembly is still many tons, I'd guess). The linked text talks about defense against cheap drones and cost curves - not about niche special operation air defense. If you have to defend an installation against a hundred cheap drones a week or so, not sure roadrunner is that cost efficient. On 2), yes, but only if the intercept fails kind of completely.
- hn_throwaway902 3y ago
  @RandomLensman - would be very interested to speak with you. I work with some folks in Ukraine to support defensive tech. chris at ukrainedefensefund dot org

CuriousCosmic 3y ago

I don't really think that's remotely comparable. The Roadrunner is around the size of a person and can launch unsupported from the ground (i.e. sit it upright and press a button on a tablet). The roadrunner nest installations are marginally larger, containing just enough space for a fuel tank (to refuel unsuccessful or cancelled intercept attempts) and power to keep them operating. So in the space that you can fit a Gepard, you can fit lets say 20 roadrunner nests. You can take those in a truck, drive around and scatter them around the site with some camouflaging. If you are only expecting occasional missile/rocket attacks, you can build a net for intercepts that is far wider than you can realistically with stationary or even mobile AA guns. But the real value of it for the customer (special operations) is that you can realistically have 2-4 people carry one in a box by hand or in the back of a jeep and in a matter of minutes, set it up, and shoot down an aircraft (or any other moving target).

RandomLensman 3y ago
I get the special operations need. However, 20 roadrunners is 20 successful intercepts at best - if you want to go down cost curves you need really cheap intercepts.
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  I think there are different cost curves though. If you are expecting mass swarms of drones, rockets, and/or missiles, then traditional AA installations make more sense. But if you are expecting only intermittent intercepts then the cost per intercept is probably going to be lower with something like the what Anduril is offering as cursory searches suggest the Roadrunner is going to be priced around 100k-300k per unit. And this fits in nicely with their far cheaper Anvil-M interceptors (low speed, quadcopter interceptors) where anvil would take the ultra cheap drones while Roadrunner takes the high altitude or jet/rocket powered targets.
luma 3y ago
All great points and I'll add one - the operator will be far away from the weapons, so even if they are sighted and targeted you minimize human casualties and it won't give up the teams' position.

bluGill 3y ago

AA must be stationary. Even if you can move it you cannot. If your country is at war we know small drones can cheaply reach pretty far in. That means you need AA covering every place anywhere near the front. If you move the AA you risk enemy spies finding out what place is not covered and attacking there. Maybe you can move from my backyard to my neighbor's backyard, but that is about all you can realistically do.