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Why should any credence be given to Moody's when they were the same group of people who were rating subprime mortgages as AAA. In my mind, they lost their credi

Why should any credence be given to Moody's when they were the same group of people who were rating subprime mortgages as AAA. In my mind, they lost their credibility as a ratings agency.

rollypolly 15y ago
You're right, it's also like kicking Nokia while it's down. It's really sad.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Remember Nokia did it to itself. They could fix MeeGo, they could have gone with Android and, instead, they bet their future on an OS that had shown very little hope of growth. They could also have left the smartphone market and focused on high-function S40 dumbphones and base a way up from there.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    Fix MeeGo? They failed at it, that's why they had to switch. There was no way that the Symbian sales could be replaced. Android? HTCs profit's are falling at an alarming clip, Motorola was in losses and got taken over inspite of the flagship Droid, LG reported a loss of $250 million for 2011. Nokia isn't going anywhere, it was expected that the transition would be very tough, if things get really dire, expect a bailout/takeover from Microsoft.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      > if things get really dire, expect a bailout/takeover from Microsoft. I suspect this was the plan.
    - sciurus 15y ago
      True, MeeGo failed. I assume this was due to mismanagement and political problems at Nokia and Intel, since Nokia's phone based on MeeGo/Harmattan [0] was well received [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#MeeGo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#MeeGo [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/
  - taligent 15y ago
    MeeGo was a nice OS about 3 years too late. I have a N9 at work. It is nice. But with no ecosystem it nothing more than a feature phone. And whilst it is reasonable to focus on feature phones they aren't the future. Even in third world countries. They buy a feature phone whilst dreaming of an iPhone.
    - stcredzero 15y ago
      So all Apple has to do is to bring the price point of the 3GS down to feature phone levels to take over the world?
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        I don't think the iPhone experience is right for a limited function device. For those, a display and keys may be a better solution. It's also cheaper and the battery life is much better.
        stcredzero 15y ago
        I said to bring the price down, not the experience.
        rbanffy 15y ago
        Some people just want to dial numbers and talk to people.
        stcredzero 15y ago
        I think tons of people in developing nations will want something more, like payments. I suspect many would jump at the chance to do those things on an iPhone.
    - artsrc 15y ago
      To late? People replace their phones frequently. The mobile app market is diverse and vibrant, with frequent new players and products. If new ecosystem can not develop then Windows Mobile was just as bad a choice as MeeGo.
  - gravitronic 15y ago
    I agree. From a developers perspective they are a nightmare. Log onto their portal and there's more than 8 SDKs available for download without a clear message which are for what phone market or even still sold.
ticks 15y ago
Whenever I look at a story about Moody's, S&P and so on, there's almost always two types of comments: people who are threatened by their decisions (and discredit them) and people who feel vindicated (and think the decision is great). I don't know what to believe, but I would hope that these entities are less subordinate these days.
- jordanb 15y ago
  For me, I think the ratings agencies are useless because most of their ratings are stating the obvious after the fact. What use would a weather man be who tells you that it rained yesterday, but that the weather conditions tomorrow are still under review at the present time.
  - meric 15y ago
    If you were a public servant in charge of investing the local government's funds, and your instructions were "invest the funds in moderately risky investments"... What does "moderately risky" mean? It's certainly not Treasury bonds. You think, say, investing in basket of stocks in the NASDAQ is moderately risky, but are you really sure that's what your superiors want, are you really that sure of your opinion to bet your job on it? Or would you invest in asset X because Moody said it was moderately risky? Did everyone know Nokia is junk before Moody downgraded it? The after-the-fact rating at least ensures everyone who matters knows it.
taligent 15y ago
Which is why they have done a 180 are now being extra cautious. And in doing so causing just as many problems as before. They really deserve a lot more hatred and derision then they are getting.
guelo 15y ago
FTFA: "You could argue that Moody's was one of the ratings agencies that consistently passed off sub-prime debt as investment grade material in the noughties and that it may well be wrong – indeed, Nokia's share price rose slightly on Monday. But more than a few analysts are now seriously concerned about Nokia's future, with the company losing both staff and customers, and in an alliance with Microsoft to push an unpopular mobile operating system."
- r00fus 15y ago
  Moody's along with S&P and the other ratings scam-artists are, in this case, just adding formality to what was already known - Nokia had a big red target painted on it as soon as Android gained any popularity. What's surprising is the complete and utter inability for Nokia to respond. The death knell, at least for me, was hearing Elop set fire to the existing Symbian property and supply lines... equivalent to detonating your own ammo/fuel dump while being sieged - lots of flash and bang, but no future.

Why should any credence be given to Moody's when they were the same group of people who were rating subprime mortgages as AAA. In my mind, they lost their credibility as a ratings agency.

rollypolly 15y ago

You're right, it's also like kicking Nokia while it's down. It's really sad.

rbanffy 15y ago
Remember Nokia did it to itself. They could fix MeeGo, they could have gone with Android and, instead, they bet their future on an OS that had shown very little hope of growth. They could also have left the smartphone market and focused on high-function S40 dumbphones and base a way up from there.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  Fix MeeGo? They failed at it, that's why they had to switch. There was no way that the Symbian sales could be replaced. Android? HTCs profit's are falling at an alarming clip, Motorola was in losses and got taken over inspite of the flagship Droid, LG reported a loss of $250 million for 2011. Nokia isn't going anywhere, it was expected that the transition would be very tough, if things get really dire, expect a bailout/takeover from Microsoft.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    > if things get really dire, expect a bailout/takeover from Microsoft. I suspect this was the plan.
  - sciurus 15y ago
    True, MeeGo failed. I assume this was due to mismanagement and political problems at Nokia and Intel, since Nokia's phone based on MeeGo/Harmattan [0] was well received [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#MeeGo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#MeeGo [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/
- taligent 15y ago
  MeeGo was a nice OS about 3 years too late. I have a N9 at work. It is nice. But with no ecosystem it nothing more than a feature phone. And whilst it is reasonable to focus on feature phones they aren't the future. Even in third world countries. They buy a feature phone whilst dreaming of an iPhone.
  - stcredzero 15y ago
    So all Apple has to do is to bring the price point of the 3GS down to feature phone levels to take over the world?
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      I don't think the iPhone experience is right for a limited function device. For those, a display and keys may be a better solution. It's also cheaper and the battery life is much better.
      - stcredzero 15y ago
        I said to bring the price down, not the experience.
        rbanffy 15y ago
        Some people just want to dial numbers and talk to people.
        stcredzero 15y ago
        I think tons of people in developing nations will want something more, like payments. I suspect many would jump at the chance to do those things on an iPhone.
  - artsrc 15y ago
    To late? People replace their phones frequently. The mobile app market is diverse and vibrant, with frequent new players and products. If new ecosystem can not develop then Windows Mobile was just as bad a choice as MeeGo.
- gravitronic 15y ago
  I agree. From a developers perspective they are a nightmare. Log onto their portal and there's more than 8 SDKs available for download without a clear message which are for what phone market or even still sold.

ticks 15y ago

Whenever I look at a story about Moody's, S&P and so on, there's almost always two types of comments: people who are threatened by their decisions (and discredit them) and people who feel vindicated (and think the decision is great). I don't know what to believe, but I would hope that these entities are less subordinate these days.

jordanb 15y ago
For me, I think the ratings agencies are useless because most of their ratings are stating the obvious after the fact. What use would a weather man be who tells you that it rained yesterday, but that the weather conditions tomorrow are still under review at the present time.
- meric 15y ago
  If you were a public servant in charge of investing the local government's funds, and your instructions were "invest the funds in moderately risky investments"... What does "moderately risky" mean? It's certainly not Treasury bonds. You think, say, investing in basket of stocks in the NASDAQ is moderately risky, but are you really sure that's what your superiors want, are you really that sure of your opinion to bet your job on it? Or would you invest in asset X because Moody said it was moderately risky? Did everyone know Nokia is junk before Moody downgraded it? The after-the-fact rating at least ensures everyone who matters knows it.

taligent 15y ago

Which is why they have done a 180 are now being extra cautious. And in doing so causing just as many problems as before. They really deserve a lot more hatred and derision then they are getting.

guelo 15y ago

FTFA: "You could argue that Moody's was one of the ratings agencies that consistently passed off sub-prime debt as investment grade material in the noughties and that it may well be wrong – indeed, Nokia's share price rose slightly on Monday. But more than a few analysts are now seriously concerned about Nokia's future, with the company losing both staff and customers, and in an alliance with Microsoft to push an unpopular mobile operating system."

r00fus 15y ago
Moody's along with S&P and the other ratings scam-artists are, in this case, just adding formality to what was already known - Nokia had a big red target painted on it as soon as Android gained any popularity. What's surprising is the complete and utter inability for Nokia to respond. The death knell, at least for me, was hearing Elop set fire to the existing Symbian property and supply lines... equivalent to detonating your own ammo/fuel dump while being sieged - lots of flash and bang, but no future.