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This feels true to me. So my question is - and I don't know the answer yet, though I continue to seek such - when do we, as a humanity, break this cycle? When,

This feels true to me. So my question is - and I don't know the answer yet, though I continue to seek such - when do we, as a humanity, break this cycle? When, and how, do we override the greed impulse, the impulse for power and control and domination of others? When do we begin to leverage a superior cognitive capacity enough to gain true enlightenment and break free from the bonds of behaviour which, while necessary as we evolved, is no longer required, and replace it with an egalitarian perspective and an accompanying stewardship model of life on earth?

zozbot234 3y ago
We are pretty much there already. The average person in a developed Western country is pretty much a billionaire when compared to the living conditions of even the wealthiest people in ancient history. It's only the impulse of greed and envy towards others that leads us to believe otherwise.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  I'm always reminded of the video where one monkey is rewarded with a cucumber and one with a grape[1]. Certainly getting a cucumber is infinitely better than not having a cucumber, and yet the monkey protests. Despite having higher cognitive functions, that impulse still exists and can only be suppressed for so long and so far. No one has infinite capacity to maintain what they see as unfairness indefinitely, especially when it seems that humans make their own rules. 1. Capuchin monkey fairness experiment, total duration: 57s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  Not quite. Some things are fundamentally restricted in supply - for example and most pertinently, decent housing where people need to live. It is hard to feel like a billionaire when you have to share cramped living spaces that take most of your income.
- blacksmith_tb 3y ago
  Traditional responses see that as either good (which I think is your implication) or terrible, a la "bread and circuses" where people are too complacent to demand any real changes. I would say that the "average person" is a tricky model, here in the US there are people sleeping on the sidewalk, but they have smartphones in their pockets. Are they better off than a Roman emperor? I would say no.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    Thanks for pointing this out. It helped me contextualize the argument. It is a combination of "Other People Have It Worse Than You Do" but uses the past as a point of reference. We could just as easy compare ourselves to our presumably better off future and say that we have it worse off than them so we deserve to improve things now.
snapplebobapple 3y ago
You don't. Biology is a weird and wonderful thing and all these behaviours are ingrained deep. You arent changing anythibg without likely making it way worse through unforeseen outcomes. What we have to do instead is harness these emotions for financially wiping out the weak wealth inheritors mich more effectively so that it is rare to get more than 3 or 4 generations of these people with no skill growing the pot. One generation of imbecile/useless person needs to be likely to wipe out the pot.This would take the form of such things as (but not limited to) drastically limiting the controls one can keep on inheritances through time so more money ends up in inheritors hands with no restrictions sooner, finding a way to make private equity mich riskier/more evemly allocated so that the expected return for rich people is lower (but skilled rich can still earn high returns), more effectibely limiting corporate market power abuse by more effectively breaking up oligopolies (dont have to go back to prerehnquist levels of trust breaking but need to jead back in that direction some), etc.

zozbot234 3y ago

We are pretty much there already. The average person in a developed Western country is pretty much a billionaire when compared to the living conditions of even the wealthiest people in ancient history. It's only the impulse of greed and envy towards others that leads us to believe otherwise.

kelseyfrog 3y ago
I'm always reminded of the video where one monkey is rewarded with a cucumber and one with a grape[1]. Certainly getting a cucumber is infinitely better than not having a cucumber, and yet the monkey protests. Despite having higher cognitive functions, that impulse still exists and can only be suppressed for so long and so far. No one has infinite capacity to maintain what they see as unfairness indefinitely, especially when it seems that humans make their own rules. 1. Capuchin monkey fairness experiment, total duration: 57s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo
somewhereoutth 3y ago
Not quite. Some things are fundamentally restricted in supply - for example and most pertinently, decent housing where people need to live. It is hard to feel like a billionaire when you have to share cramped living spaces that take most of your income.
blacksmith_tb 3y ago
Traditional responses see that as either good (which I think is your implication) or terrible, a la "bread and circuses" where people are too complacent to demand any real changes. I would say that the "average person" is a tricky model, here in the US there are people sleeping on the sidewalk, but they have smartphones in their pockets. Are they better off than a Roman emperor? I would say no.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. It helped me contextualize the argument. It is a combination of "Other People Have It Worse Than You Do" but uses the past as a point of reference. We could just as easy compare ourselves to our presumably better off future and say that we have it worse off than them so we deserve to improve things now.

snapplebobapple 3y ago

You don't. Biology is a weird and wonderful thing and all these behaviours are ingrained deep. You arent changing anythibg without likely making it way worse through unforeseen outcomes. What we have to do instead is harness these emotions for financially wiping out the weak wealth inheritors mich more effectively so that it is rare to get more than 3 or 4 generations of these people with no skill growing the pot. One generation of imbecile/useless person needs to be likely to wipe out the pot.This would take the form of such things as (but not limited to) drastically limiting the controls one can keep on inheritances through time so more money ends up in inheritors hands with no restrictions sooner, finding a way to make private equity mich riskier/more evemly allocated so that the expected return for rich people is lower (but skilled rich can still earn high returns), more effectibely limiting corporate market power abuse by more effectively breaking up oligopolies (dont have to go back to prerehnquist levels of trust breaking but need to jead back in that direction some), etc.