4 ms·

Five years ago I would’ve never guessed that I would be downvoting overtly Islamophobic comments on HN. The current escalation reminds me of the early days aft

by jnovek 3y ago

Five years ago I would’ve never guessed that I would be downvoting overtly Islamophobic comments on HN. The current escalation reminds me of the early days after 9/11.

danielbln 3y ago
Which comments are you talking about? At the time of writing, there are two comments in this thread, including yours, and none are islamophobic.
- jnovek 3y ago
  The ones I downvoted are now dead, you have to turn on “showdead” to see them.
- manojlds 3y ago
  I see dead comments
abletonlive 3y ago
[flagged]
- jnovek 3y ago
  Etymology is interesting stuff for sure, but I'm pretty sure that "Islamophobia" is a well-established term: it was first included in the OED in 1923.
  - discard129 3y ago
    Worth noting that this isn’t a contradiction of the criticism of your use of it.
    - jnovek 3y ago
      Google's definition is "dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force." which means exactly what I intended. Perhaps I don't understand the criticism -- it's supposed to be some sort of culture war thing? I'm using the normal, well-established word for this phenomenon. If you dislike the word, take it up with Oxford, I guess.
      - abletonlive 3y ago
        You definitely don't get it. Why is disliking islam a problem and why should that be downvoted?
- thsksbd 3y ago
  Far-right wing Catholic who wants to stop muslim immigration into Europe [1] here: If you don't think islamophobia is real, and used to manipulate Western populations, you're delusional. The US is very scary right now and, in some circles, I only mention my wife's religious background with a dash of courage. It helps that we both obviously despise coastal liberals though. 1. Ironically married to a muslim European.
  - abletonlive 3y ago
    Big distinction to make here. It's not that I don't think islamophobia isn't real, I don't think islam"ophobia" is a problem. Every religion deserves to be criticized, especially when they have values that don't align with the free world. I will sit here all night and talk about how the catholic church has a pedophilia and sexual abuse problem, and also sit here all night talking about the subjugation of women and jihadist ideas are rampant because of islam. Can you see how your perspective is a little presumptuous? By calling it "islamophobia" you've skipped the part where we discuss if it's a problem or not - you've already assumed any dislike of islam is a bad thing.
- eesmith 3y ago
  The traditional terms for "catholicphobic" inlude "anti-Catholic", "anti-papist", and "anti-clerical". Take https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/international-center-for-jefferson-studies/talks-lectures-symposia-conferences/thomas-jefferson-anti-papist/ https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/i... as an example: "Thomas Jefferson’s well known anti-clericalism is generally treated as part of his advocacy for intellectual freedom, but it is also a sign of his participation in a much broader culture of anti-popery. Evan Haefeli will set Jefferson’s much lauded hope that America would “be to the world . . . the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves,” within a longstanding anti-popish tradition that contrasted liberty, knowledge, and science with stereotypes usually associated with Roman Catholicism. More than just anti-Catholic prejudice, the religious and political values derived from this tradition fused had been a fundamental part of how British Americans understood their liberty." The US had an anti-Catholic tradition up until at least the 1960s, which JFK had to address directly in his presidential election campaign. Just because we say "physics" instead of "physicology" doesn't mean it's not the same as other -ologies.
  - abletonlive 3y ago
    You're completely missing the point. No liberal is going to sit here and talk about how we are anticatholic for talking about sexual abuse in the catholic church, but they certainly will say "islamophobia" if we start criticizing islam because of jihadists, the subjugation of women, and the treatment of LGBTQ. Suddenly it's "not all muslims" and such...
    - eesmith 3y ago
      We certainly can criticize jihadists without criticizing Islam in exactly the same way we can criticize participants of the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in (Northern) Ireland without criticizing the Catholic or Anglican churches, much less all Anglicans and Catholics. The Islamophobia accusation comes in when people, for example, want to expel all non-citizen Muslims because of what a small number of jihaddists thousands of miles away did, or want to "bomb the region back to the Stone Age" for the same reason. Where are the calls to expel all Catholic foreign residents because of systemic sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Where are the calls to nuke the Vatican? We should see far more of those if your two cases were really parallel, and were that so we would be hearing a lot of "not all Catholics." My point is that we already use "anti-Catholic" what you describe as "Catholicphobic". The English Reformation era was DEEPLY anti-Catholic, and far more violent towards recusants than Islamophobia in the modern US, with some executed for their Catholic faith. And yet we use the term "anti-Catholic", not "Catholicphobic" for that situation. (To further muddy the waters, "jihad" has multiple meanings and you are using a particularly Western interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad points out "Most Western writers consider external jihad to have primacy over inner jihad in the Islamic tradition, while much of contemporary Muslim opinion favors the opposite view.[19]" Consider how US soldiers use "haji" has a slur when for Muslims it is an honorific title. Further, consider how George W. Bush called US action after 9/11 a "crusade" - a reference to a series of Christian military actions.)
Always_Anon 3y ago
>overtly Islamophobic comment Being against those who support anti-woman and anti-LGBTQ+ views isn't Islamophobic. It's common fucking sense.

by jnovek 3y ago

Five years ago I would’ve never guessed that I would be downvoting overtly Islamophobic comments on HN. The current escalation reminds me of the early days after 9/11.

danielbln 3y ago

Which comments are you talking about? At the time of writing, there are two comments in this thread, including yours, and none are islamophobic.

jnovek 3y ago
The ones I downvoted are now dead, you have to turn on “showdead” to see them.
manojlds 3y ago
I see dead comments

abletonlive 3y ago

[flagged]

jnovek 3y ago
Etymology is interesting stuff for sure, but I'm pretty sure that "Islamophobia" is a well-established term: it was first included in the OED in 1923.
- discard129 3y ago
  Worth noting that this isn’t a contradiction of the criticism of your use of it.
  - jnovek 3y ago
    Google's definition is "dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force." which means exactly what I intended. Perhaps I don't understand the criticism -- it's supposed to be some sort of culture war thing? I'm using the normal, well-established word for this phenomenon. If you dislike the word, take it up with Oxford, I guess.
    - abletonlive 3y ago
      You definitely don't get it. Why is disliking islam a problem and why should that be downvoted?
thsksbd 3y ago
Far-right wing Catholic who wants to stop muslim immigration into Europe [1] here: If you don't think islamophobia is real, and used to manipulate Western populations, you're delusional. The US is very scary right now and, in some circles, I only mention my wife's religious background with a dash of courage. It helps that we both obviously despise coastal liberals though. 1. Ironically married to a muslim European.
- abletonlive 3y ago
  Big distinction to make here. It's not that I don't think islamophobia isn't real, I don't think islam"ophobia" is a problem. Every religion deserves to be criticized, especially when they have values that don't align with the free world. I will sit here all night and talk about how the catholic church has a pedophilia and sexual abuse problem, and also sit here all night talking about the subjugation of women and jihadist ideas are rampant because of islam. Can you see how your perspective is a little presumptuous? By calling it "islamophobia" you've skipped the part where we discuss if it's a problem or not - you've already assumed any dislike of islam is a bad thing.
eesmith 3y ago
The traditional terms for "catholicphobic" inlude "anti-Catholic", "anti-papist", and "anti-clerical". Take https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/international-center-for-jefferson-studies/talks-lectures-symposia-conferences/thomas-jefferson-anti-papist/ https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/i... as an example: "Thomas Jefferson’s well known anti-clericalism is generally treated as part of his advocacy for intellectual freedom, but it is also a sign of his participation in a much broader culture of anti-popery. Evan Haefeli will set Jefferson’s much lauded hope that America would “be to the world . . . the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves,” within a longstanding anti-popish tradition that contrasted liberty, knowledge, and science with stereotypes usually associated with Roman Catholicism. More than just anti-Catholic prejudice, the religious and political values derived from this tradition fused had been a fundamental part of how British Americans understood their liberty." The US had an anti-Catholic tradition up until at least the 1960s, which JFK had to address directly in his presidential election campaign. Just because we say "physics" instead of "physicology" doesn't mean it's not the same as other -ologies.
- abletonlive 3y ago
  You're completely missing the point. No liberal is going to sit here and talk about how we are anticatholic for talking about sexual abuse in the catholic church, but they certainly will say "islamophobia" if we start criticizing islam because of jihadists, the subjugation of women, and the treatment of LGBTQ. Suddenly it's "not all muslims" and such...
  - eesmith 3y ago
    We certainly can criticize jihadists without criticizing Islam in exactly the same way we can criticize participants of the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in (Northern) Ireland without criticizing the Catholic or Anglican churches, much less all Anglicans and Catholics. The Islamophobia accusation comes in when people, for example, want to expel all non-citizen Muslims because of what a small number of jihaddists thousands of miles away did, or want to "bomb the region back to the Stone Age" for the same reason. Where are the calls to expel all Catholic foreign residents because of systemic sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Where are the calls to nuke the Vatican? We should see far more of those if your two cases were really parallel, and were that so we would be hearing a lot of "not all Catholics." My point is that we already use "anti-Catholic" what you describe as "Catholicphobic". The English Reformation era was DEEPLY anti-Catholic, and far more violent towards recusants than Islamophobia in the modern US, with some executed for their Catholic faith. And yet we use the term "anti-Catholic", not "Catholicphobic" for that situation. (To further muddy the waters, "jihad" has multiple meanings and you are using a particularly Western interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad points out "Most Western writers consider external jihad to have primacy over inner jihad in the Islamic tradition, while much of contemporary Muslim opinion favors the opposite view.[19]" Consider how US soldiers use "haji" has a slur when for Muslims it is an honorific title. Further, consider how George W. Bush called US action after 9/11 a "crusade" - a reference to a series of Christian military actions.)

Always_Anon 3y ago

>overtly Islamophobic comment Being against those who support anti-woman and anti-LGBTQ+ views isn't Islamophobic. It's common fucking sense.