4 ms·

Marketing at ASML isn’t designing billboard ads. It’s a very technical role. That said I do wonder how much marketing a monopolist needs.

nwiswell 3y ago
> That said I do wonder how much marketing a monopolist needs. Marketing in this context means figuring out what the customer will buy, and making sure that the engineers build that. It is very easy in this industry to build the wrong thing. Even the customer does not necessarily know what they will want or need in a few years. A lot of the time it can mean predicting the future integration scheme, and deducing the future pain points from that. As you say, it's a very technical role, and you cannot succeed without a deep understanding of the entire process flow. It's also a no-brainer to transition to strategic leadership, because that's basically what you've been doing the whole time.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  I used to work for a competitor of ASML. You do not want to screw up deals with this kind of kit. The price tag of a single order can be nine digits, and it needs to be kept BSL4 clean, from first baseplate, to final install. I heard about our company selling a whole line of steppers to a Korean company. They had to be flown out in special 747s, because BSL4, and installed on site. Then, the customer's company went belly up. They cut the power to the fab (Maybe like this?[0]). Instant junkyard. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Uy9wsfkok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Uy9wsfkok [EDIT] Corrected "BL5" to "BSL4" -Still probably inappropriate
  - dtech 3y ago
    What is BL5? Google doesn't yield anything.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      I think it stands for "Bio-Level 5". I have a friend that works for a major sterilizer company, and he uses the term a lot. It may be an inappropriate term, in this context. Basically, it means "Full bunny suit."[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0bMN9xh9hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0bMN9xh9hM [EDIT] I was wrong. I should have said "BSL4", (my friend exaggerates), but the deal is that it is done under the highest clean room conditions. (I was never in that part of the company. I was in the optical part).
    - antonjs 3y ago
      Might be a reference to ISO-5 mixed up with BSL (biosafety levels)
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  I wonder if the word "marketing" has a different but still correct definition here, like; "bringing a product to market". ASML seems unlike most other companies I've heard of, since every single sale is a significant chunk of the netherlands' gnp, and they have to inform the government every single time they ship something.
robocat 3y ago
> monopolist Are they crippling their competitors or gimping their market somehow? Why the accusation? What do you know? This later thread asks the right question and gets some good answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38486689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38486689 The clearest example of why they are not a monopolist is that the Chinese haven't been able to copy the technology - ASML has zero monopoly power over China and China in theory has the motivation and resources to copy, but hasn't so far. Because the technology is fundamentally hard - not because of backroom tricks.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  Meh most people at ASML that I know (admittedly only engineers) consider it a monopolist. Tbf I wasn’t aware that it was an accusation. They acquired a monopoly position through hard work and risky investments, not through anticompetitive behavior. And ok they’re not strictly a monopoly because there are other litho makers but if you need the precision of an ASML EUV then there’s no other vendor. Isn’t that kind of the definition of being a monopolist?
  - atonse 3y ago
    With no skin in the game, I’d say “monopoly” would seem less accusatory (in that it meets the definition) but “monopolist” seems more negative (in that it acts like one, which has negative connotations)
- falserum 3y ago
  I think it’s just description of “absence of competition”. Reasons for lack of it, are orthogonal to the term. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly > Are they crippling their competitors or gimping their market somehow? Anticompetitive behaviour and monopoly are separate. You can have the 2nd one without the first one.

nwiswell 3y ago

> That said I do wonder how much marketing a monopolist needs. Marketing in this context means figuring out what the customer will buy, and making sure that the engineers build that. It is very easy in this industry to build the wrong thing. Even the customer does not necessarily know what they will want or need in a few years. A lot of the time it can mean predicting the future integration scheme, and deducing the future pain points from that. As you say, it's a very technical role, and you cannot succeed without a deep understanding of the entire process flow. It's also a no-brainer to transition to strategic leadership, because that's basically what you've been doing the whole time.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
I used to work for a competitor of ASML. You do not want to screw up deals with this kind of kit. The price tag of a single order can be nine digits, and it needs to be kept BSL4 clean, from first baseplate, to final install. I heard about our company selling a whole line of steppers to a Korean company. They had to be flown out in special 747s, because BSL4, and installed on site. Then, the customer's company went belly up. They cut the power to the fab (Maybe like this?[0]). Instant junkyard. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Uy9wsfkok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Uy9wsfkok [EDIT] Corrected "BL5" to "BSL4" -Still probably inappropriate
- dtech 3y ago
  What is BL5? Google doesn't yield anything.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    I think it stands for "Bio-Level 5". I have a friend that works for a major sterilizer company, and he uses the term a lot. It may be an inappropriate term, in this context. Basically, it means "Full bunny suit."[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0bMN9xh9hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0bMN9xh9hM [EDIT] I was wrong. I should have said "BSL4", (my friend exaggerates), but the deal is that it is done under the highest clean room conditions. (I was never in that part of the company. I was in the optical part).
  - antonjs 3y ago
    Might be a reference to ISO-5 mixed up with BSL (biosafety levels)
extraduder_ire 3y ago
I wonder if the word "marketing" has a different but still correct definition here, like; "bringing a product to market". ASML seems unlike most other companies I've heard of, since every single sale is a significant chunk of the netherlands' gnp, and they have to inform the government every single time they ship something.

robocat 3y ago

> monopolist Are they crippling their competitors or gimping their market somehow? Why the accusation? What do you know? This later thread asks the right question and gets some good answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38486689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38486689 The clearest example of why they are not a monopolist is that the Chinese haven't been able to copy the technology - ASML has zero monopoly power over China and China in theory has the motivation and resources to copy, but hasn't so far. Because the technology is fundamentally hard - not because of backroom tricks.

skrebbel 3y ago
Meh most people at ASML that I know (admittedly only engineers) consider it a monopolist. Tbf I wasn’t aware that it was an accusation. They acquired a monopoly position through hard work and risky investments, not through anticompetitive behavior. And ok they’re not strictly a monopoly because there are other litho makers but if you need the precision of an ASML EUV then there’s no other vendor. Isn’t that kind of the definition of being a monopolist?
- atonse 3y ago
  With no skin in the game, I’d say “monopoly” would seem less accusatory (in that it meets the definition) but “monopolist” seems more negative (in that it acts like one, which has negative connotations)
falserum 3y ago
I think it’s just description of “absence of competition”. Reasons for lack of it, are orthogonal to the term. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly > Are they crippling their competitors or gimping their market somehow? Anticompetitive behaviour and monopoly are separate. You can have the 2nd one without the first one.