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NATO doesn't control any of the countries that decided to join. These are sovereign countries that decided to join an alliance for their own security. Most of t

NATO doesn't control any of the countries that decided to join. These are sovereign countries that decided to join an alliance for their own security. Most of the benefit comes from article 5 that protects smaller countries from being invaded. This is very different than an imperial dictatorship like Russia, which actually does turn their conquests into puppet states. But of course Russia and its minions like to act as if NATO is an imperial power. They also like to act as if USA controls all the NATO countries. While if fact, those countries are democracies that decide their own destinies. So in the end, it's actually Ukraine that wants to join NATO for obvious reasons, not the other way around. NATO could have already let Ukraine join if it wanted to. This is not 'NATO wanting Ukraine under their influence', this is 'Ukraine wanting the security guarantees that NATO offers'. I'm getting really tired of all the Russian bullshit that's being spread here.

danbruc 3y ago
If NATO has no interest in Ukraine joining, then they could just have said no and avoided the entire mess.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- koonsolo 3y ago
  You think Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine if NATO said no to their membership? You're so naive.
  - danbruc 3y ago
    I can offer Russian statements spanning more than two decades consistently demanding that NATO stops expanding eastwards as evidence that this is what Russia cared about. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Why did they invade?
    - mopsi 3y ago
      Nobody denies that Russia has tried to do everything they could to leave their neighbours internationally isolated to make them easy to subjugate. Criminals would no doubt like to see the police abolished and security systems dismantled. The question is why should anyone lend any legitimacy to their pretended excuses and sacrifice the freedom and wellbeing of tens of millions of Europeans in the name of imagined Russian "security concerns", which is just thinly veiled frustration over being unable to conquer them by force as long as international cooperation remains tight. I don't want to see Russians destroy my home with artillery, rape and murder the people around me, and force me to live in Russia, where human life has no value, elections are rigged, and police can rape peaceful protestors with impunity. Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change?
      - ansible 3y ago
        > Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change? Nope, sorry. It doesn't matter who you are, where you live, or what your concerns are. Russia and Putin insist that you must support Mother Russia, and be willing to die for the cause (of ensuring Putin gains power and wealth). /s
    - koonsolo 3y ago
      You actually believe Putin? Hahaha. > Why did they invade? Like I already stated earlier, because they want to control it like Georgia, Chechnya, Dagestan and Belarus. Only 1 of those countries was considered for NATO membership after the conflict kept going since 91 (considered membership in 2008). > What evidence do you have to the contrary? - Russia invading the North Caucasus (Chechnya, Dagestan, ...), without NATO having anything to do with it. *Please answer why they invaded.* - Russia kept attacking Georgia since 91. Putin came in power in 2000 and he escalated that war, until it reached its peak in 2008 when NATO considered Georgias membership. So did Russia start that conflict because of NATO, or did Georgia wanted to join because of the conflict since 91? *Please answer why Russia kept the conflict going from 91 to 2008* - Finland, a country with a huge border with Russia, applied for NATO membership in May 2022. Russia didn't invade that country to prevent them from joining *Please answer me why not* - If Finland is such a huge threat for Russia because of NATO, *please show Russian troop buildup on that border since Finland applied and joined.* - In 1999, Russia was one of the signatories of the Charter for European Security, which "reaffirmed the inherent right of each and every participating State to be free to choose or change its security arrangements, including treaties of alliance, as they evolve." And last but not least, your dear friend Mr Putin said the following in 2002, as documented on the Kremlin website: "On the topic of Ukraine’s accession to NATO, the Russian President said that it was entitled to make the decision independently. He does not see it as something that could cloud the relations between Russia and Ukraine." Go read it at the Kremlin website http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/43122 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/43122. *Anything to say about that?*
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    They did, after NATO said no to their membership action plan (more immediately, though, they did that to Georgia.) Its pretty clear that Russia's concern about Ukraine (and Georgia’s) membership in NATO isn't the reason for their aggression, but rather a result of their intended aggression and the complications that potential NATO involvement posed for that. The Russo-Georgian and Russo-Ukrainian wars are the result of NATO accommodating Russia in this area, not a result of NATO threatening Russia.

danbruc 3y ago

If NATO has no interest in Ukraine joining, then they could just have said no and avoided the entire mess.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
koonsolo 3y ago
You think Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine if NATO said no to their membership? You're so naive.
- danbruc 3y ago
  I can offer Russian statements spanning more than two decades consistently demanding that NATO stops expanding eastwards as evidence that this is what Russia cared about. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Why did they invade?
  - mopsi 3y ago
    Nobody denies that Russia has tried to do everything they could to leave their neighbours internationally isolated to make them easy to subjugate. Criminals would no doubt like to see the police abolished and security systems dismantled. The question is why should anyone lend any legitimacy to their pretended excuses and sacrifice the freedom and wellbeing of tens of millions of Europeans in the name of imagined Russian "security concerns", which is just thinly veiled frustration over being unable to conquer them by force as long as international cooperation remains tight. I don't want to see Russians destroy my home with artillery, rape and murder the people around me, and force me to live in Russia, where human life has no value, elections are rigged, and police can rape peaceful protestors with impunity. Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change?
    - ansible 3y ago
      > Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change? Nope, sorry. It doesn't matter who you are, where you live, or what your concerns are. Russia and Putin insist that you must support Mother Russia, and be willing to die for the cause (of ensuring Putin gains power and wealth). /s
  - koonsolo 3y ago
    You actually believe Putin? Hahaha. > Why did they invade? Like I already stated earlier, because they want to control it like Georgia, Chechnya, Dagestan and Belarus. Only 1 of those countries was considered for NATO membership after the conflict kept going since 91 (considered membership in 2008). > What evidence do you have to the contrary? - Russia invading the North Caucasus (Chechnya, Dagestan, ...), without NATO having anything to do with it. *Please answer why they invaded.* - Russia kept attacking Georgia since 91. Putin came in power in 2000 and he escalated that war, until it reached its peak in 2008 when NATO considered Georgias membership. So did Russia start that conflict because of NATO, or did Georgia wanted to join because of the conflict since 91? *Please answer why Russia kept the conflict going from 91 to 2008* - Finland, a country with a huge border with Russia, applied for NATO membership in May 2022. Russia didn't invade that country to prevent them from joining *Please answer me why not* - If Finland is such a huge threat for Russia because of NATO, *please show Russian troop buildup on that border since Finland applied and joined.* - In 1999, Russia was one of the signatories of the Charter for European Security, which "reaffirmed the inherent right of each and every participating State to be free to choose or change its security arrangements, including treaties of alliance, as they evolve." And last but not least, your dear friend Mr Putin said the following in 2002, as documented on the Kremlin website: "On the topic of Ukraine’s accession to NATO, the Russian President said that it was entitled to make the decision independently. He does not see it as something that could cloud the relations between Russia and Ukraine." Go read it at the Kremlin website http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/43122 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/43122. *Anything to say about that?*
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  They did, after NATO said no to their membership action plan (more immediately, though, they did that to Georgia.) Its pretty clear that Russia's concern about Ukraine (and Georgia’s) membership in NATO isn't the reason for their aggression, but rather a result of their intended aggression and the complications that potential NATO involvement posed for that. The Russo-Georgian and Russo-Ukrainian wars are the result of NATO accommodating Russia in this area, not a result of NATO threatening Russia.