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It’s simply decades of R&D that no other company has done. Barring maybe Canon and Nikon but they’re pretty far behind. ASML machines are truly a marvel of eng

It’s simply decades of R&D that no other company has done. Barring maybe Canon and Nikon but they’re pretty far behind. ASML machines are truly a marvel of engineering. And duct tape btw, but also engineering. There’s no fundamental reason other companies couldn’t compete. Simply invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of man-years and there you go, a second ASML.

kvemkon 3y ago
> It’s simply decades of R&D that no other company has done. ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser and lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms: TRUMPF (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses). > Simply invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of man-years and there you go, a second ASML. As it is often, you'd just need to know where to buy your start (remember MS DOS) and then you can invest a lot from your first revenues. Canon might come up with a good different solution (13.10.2023): - Canon, [], launches ASML challenge with machine to make the most advanced chips https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37870372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37870372 - Canon Nanoimprint lithography semiconductor manufacturing system (5nm) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894925 - Canon Prepares Nanoimprint Lithography Tool to Challenge EUV Scanners https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37917587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37917587
- brennanpeterson 3y ago
  The stage, the mirror/aberration control, and metrology (overlay/,reg and height/focus) are massive projects A fair case can be made that the twinscan concept is the key.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser and lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms: TRUMPF (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses). Correction: not lasers and lenses, but EUV light-source and mirrors. The TRUMPF laser in the EUV machines is nothing too special, but the Cymer EUV light source, consisting of blasting tin microdroplets at the right angles at speed, with said lasers, is the secret sauce. And mirrors are used instead, because lenses would absorb the EUV radiation.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  The mirrors and lasers are not the hard part, the secret sauce is the light source and getting the machines to perform at a level that makes them economically viable.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  FWIW the Zeiss relationship is perfectly symbiotic, in that there’s an exclusivity deal and neither company can do without the other. For all intents and purposes you can regard ASML and (the litho department of) Zeiss as a single company. But the ASML machines are substantially more than just some purchased parts put together. There’s a lot of unique engineering in bits that you can’t easily point at as a “part”, such as the entire metrology software - that’s the bit that measures how badly positioned and how crooked the wafer is and adjusts the laser and all stage positioning etc accordingly. You can’t buy stuff like that off the shelf, it’s all developed in-house. And they have a whole bunch of things like that, which are like part physics, part math, part mechanics, part software and part choosing/speccing (and sometimes designing) the exact right parts. Canon’s new effort looks promising indeed btw, would be great if ASML gets some serious competition one day.
jacquesm 3y ago
And some very smart strategic acquisitions, for instance: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2012/asml-to-acquire-cymer-to-accelerate-development-of-euv-technology https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2012/asml-to-acq...
prof-dr-ir 3y ago
The duct tape parts are probably a fantastic moat in itself - ASML's institutional knowledge of where and how to apply such duct tape solutions might be the most difficult to replicate by another company.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  Yep. The organization is as duct-taped as the machines they build and it’s kinda mad.
- janc_ 3y ago
  It's like only a couple companies know how to build large jet engines that don't melt when the heat inside them is way above the melting point of their materials...
bee_rider 3y ago
There’s something neat and vaguely sci-fi in the fact that we all just call them ASML machines. Like we’re in a book and the author needs a technobabble device that is made by just one organization, but incongruously powers entire industries that are foundational to the whole economy, but obviously coming up with an actual description of the device is a bit beyond the ability of the author. So they just call it “the companyname machine” and let the reader come up with details. “Oh it uses mirrors and lenses and concentrates light in a special way that nobody can replicate.” Reality is a hack author.

kvemkon 3y ago

> It’s simply decades of R&D that no other company has done. ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser and lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms: TRUMPF (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses). > Simply invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of man-years and there you go, a second ASML. As it is often, you'd just need to know where to buy your start (remember MS DOS) and then you can invest a lot from your first revenues. Canon might come up with a good different solution (13.10.2023): - Canon, [], launches ASML challenge with machine to make the most advanced chips https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37870372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37870372 - Canon Nanoimprint lithography semiconductor manufacturing system (5nm) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894925 - Canon Prepares Nanoimprint Lithography Tool to Challenge EUV Scanners https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37917587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37917587

brennanpeterson 3y ago
The stage, the mirror/aberration control, and metrology (overlay/,reg and height/focus) are massive projects A fair case can be made that the twinscan concept is the key.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser and lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms: TRUMPF (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses). Correction: not lasers and lenses, but EUV light-source and mirrors. The TRUMPF laser in the EUV machines is nothing too special, but the Cymer EUV light source, consisting of blasting tin microdroplets at the right angles at speed, with said lasers, is the secret sauce. And mirrors are used instead, because lenses would absorb the EUV radiation.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
The mirrors and lasers are not the hard part, the secret sauce is the light source and getting the machines to perform at a level that makes them economically viable.
skrebbel 3y ago
FWIW the Zeiss relationship is perfectly symbiotic, in that there’s an exclusivity deal and neither company can do without the other. For all intents and purposes you can regard ASML and (the litho department of) Zeiss as a single company. But the ASML machines are substantially more than just some purchased parts put together. There’s a lot of unique engineering in bits that you can’t easily point at as a “part”, such as the entire metrology software - that’s the bit that measures how badly positioned and how crooked the wafer is and adjusts the laser and all stage positioning etc accordingly. You can’t buy stuff like that off the shelf, it’s all developed in-house. And they have a whole bunch of things like that, which are like part physics, part math, part mechanics, part software and part choosing/speccing (and sometimes designing) the exact right parts. Canon’s new effort looks promising indeed btw, would be great if ASML gets some serious competition one day.

jacquesm 3y ago

And some very smart strategic acquisitions, for instance: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2012/asml-to-acquire-cymer-to-accelerate-development-of-euv-technology https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2012/asml-to-acq...

prof-dr-ir 3y ago

The duct tape parts are probably a fantastic moat in itself - ASML's institutional knowledge of where and how to apply such duct tape solutions might be the most difficult to replicate by another company.

skrebbel 3y ago
Yep. The organization is as duct-taped as the machines they build and it’s kinda mad.
janc_ 3y ago
It's like only a couple companies know how to build large jet engines that don't melt when the heat inside them is way above the melting point of their materials...

bee_rider 3y ago

There’s something neat and vaguely sci-fi in the fact that we all just call them ASML machines. Like we’re in a book and the author needs a technobabble device that is made by just one organization, but incongruously powers entire industries that are foundational to the whole economy, but obviously coming up with an actual description of the device is a bit beyond the ability of the author. So they just call it “the companyname machine” and let the reader come up with details. “Oh it uses mirrors and lenses and concentrates light in a special way that nobody can replicate.” Reality is a hack author.