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> But none of that even addresses my argument, Russia opposed NATO expansion. Let's be real here: Russia wants Ukraine to be "under their influence", preferabl
by koonsolo 3y ago
> But none of that even addresses my argument, Russia opposed NATO expansion.
Let's be real here: Russia wants Ukraine to be "under their influence", preferably the same way Belarus is, and Chechnya. They want Ukraine to be their puppet state.
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 because the population already gave clear indications that they wanted to move closer to the West. Russia was losing their grip on Ukraine. That's the reason why they invaded. The NATO argument is all bullshit. Finland joined NATO. Is Russia invading Finland? Or at least securing their borders with Finland?
Russia wants to control Ukraine, no more, no less.
- danbruc 3y agoAnd NATO wanted it under their influence, I mean that is just the game of geopolitics.
- koonsolo 3y agoNATO doesn't control any of the countries that decided to join. These are sovereign countries that decided to join an alliance for their own security. Most of the benefit comes from article 5 that protects smaller countries from being invaded. This is very different than an imperial dictatorship like Russia, which actually does turn their conquests into puppet states. But of course Russia and its minions like to act as if NATO is an imperial power. They also like to act as if USA controls all the NATO countries. While if fact, those countries are democracies that decide their own destinies. So in the end, it's actually Ukraine that wants to join NATO for obvious reasons, not the other way around. NATO could have already let Ukraine join if it wanted to. This is not 'NATO wanting Ukraine under their influence', this is 'Ukraine wanting the security guarantees that NATO offers'. I'm getting really tired of all the Russian bullshit that's being spread here.
- danbruc 3y agoIf NATO has no interest in Ukraine joining, then they could just have said no and avoided the entire mess.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- koonsolo 3y agoYou think Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine if NATO said no to their membership? You're so naive.
- danbruc 3y agoI can offer Russian statements spanning more than two decades consistently demanding that NATO stops expanding eastwards as evidence that this is what Russia cared about. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Why did they invade?
- mopsi 3y agoNobody denies that Russia has tried to do everything they could to leave their neighbours internationally isolated to make them easy to subjugate. Criminals would no doubt like to see the police abolished and security systems dismantled. The question is why should anyone lend any legitimacy to their pretended excuses and sacrifice the freedom and wellbeing of tens of millions of Europeans in the name of imagined Russian "security concerns", which is just thinly veiled frustration over being unable to conquer them by force as long as international cooperation remains tight. I don't want to see Russians destroy my home with artillery, rape and murder the people around me, and force me to live in Russia, where human life has no value, elections are rigged, and police can rape peaceful protestors with impunity. Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change?
- ansible 3y ago> Can you perhaps devote a few seconds to my security concerns for a change? Nope, sorry. It doesn't matter who you are, where you live, or what your concerns are. Russia and Putin insist that you must support Mother Russia, and be willing to die for the cause (of ensuring Putin gains power and wealth). /s
- 3y ago