2 ms·

At the same time, if LLMs are based on all or enough human writings then don't they necessarily contain a theory of mind? A rather general, smoothed out and sti

by creer 3y ago

At the same time, if LLMs are based on all or enough human writings then don't they necessarily contain a theory of mind? A rather general, smoothed out and still neurotic one probably. But still just like an LLM can't be expected to have a specific knowledge of hydraulics, it also has read more hydraulics than even experts might be expected to. That's the entire issue about it, right? This issue of "is most of our mind basically just mixing and matching stuff we have seen, read, heard?" Do humans have some magical theory of mind that somehow stands ASIDE from all the "normal" learned stuff? Of course, yes, we do know one thing that's missing in LLMs, which is "loop and helpers" like you describe. Which I'm sure many people are currently hacking at - one way being for the LLM to talk to itself. But as for "a theory of mind", if enough writings served as input, then LLMs do have plenty of that. Another question is whether LLMs are raised to behave like humans (which might be where they most NEED some theory of mind). Of course not. The ones we know most about are only question answerers. The theory of mind they might have (that is not negated by the lack of loop and internal deliberation) may be overwhelmed by the pre- and post-processing: "no sex, no murder plots, talk to the human like they are 5, bla bla bla". And yet you can ask things like "Tell it like you are speaking to 5 year olds who want to have a fun time". Some theory of mind makes it through.

neuronerdgirl 3y ago
That's not what theory of mind is. Theory of mind is the understanding - not academic understanding, but functional, meaningful understanding that guides your behavior - that the other people (AIs?) around you have their own separate thoughts and feelings from your own. This is what leads to the stark behavioral differences as a child develops from ~3-6 years of age. Imagine a child is playing with their toys and puts one of them in a box out of the room, then later asks you to retrieve it for them. A 3 year old will assume that, because they know they put it in the box, that you know it is there as well. (Incidentally, this is where a lot of tantrums come from, because they can't understand why you aren't reading their mind and get frustrated.) A 6 year old will not make this assumption. While this is a simple example, the concept extrapolates to more complex issues as we develop cognitively and emotionally. Not only is theory of mind about recognizing that your thoughts and feelings are separate and distinct, but also being able to project your understanding into others to predict how they might be thinking and feeling in their own separate circumstance. This is the fundamental basis of empathy, or being able to predict and understand how others around you may be feeling given their unique current circumstances even if they are different from your own. LLMs have not demonstrated any of the above understanding. Again, I'm sure they could generate a definition for it, and on any given prompt they could probably even generate some generic-ish text that could pose as empathy, but so can a horoscope. But there is not the deep, continuous comprehension of the user as a separate thinking and feeling agent that is fundamental to the idea of theory of mind.
- creer 3y ago
  I think this branch of the discussion was granting an "of course, for the moment" on this because of the lack of loop / internal conversation. After that, the entire field of AI is about making bits and register transfers - a written form of knowledge - into something indistinguishable from the wet version. Making a priori and irreconcilably different "academic understanding" and "functional, meaningful understanding" is going to be a problem.

by creer 3y ago

neuronerdgirl 3y ago

That's not what theory of mind is. Theory of mind is the understanding - not academic understanding, but functional, meaningful understanding that guides your behavior - that the other people (AIs?) around you have their own separate thoughts and feelings from your own. This is what leads to the stark behavioral differences as a child develops from ~3-6 years of age. Imagine a child is playing with their toys and puts one of them in a box out of the room, then later asks you to retrieve it for them. A 3 year old will assume that, because they know they put it in the box, that you know it is there as well. (Incidentally, this is where a lot of tantrums come from, because they can't understand why you aren't reading their mind and get frustrated.) A 6 year old will not make this assumption. While this is a simple example, the concept extrapolates to more complex issues as we develop cognitively and emotionally. Not only is theory of mind about recognizing that your thoughts and feelings are separate and distinct, but also being able to project your understanding into others to predict how they might be thinking and feeling in their own separate circumstance. This is the fundamental basis of empathy, or being able to predict and understand how others around you may be feeling given their unique current circumstances even if they are different from your own. LLMs have not demonstrated any of the above understanding. Again, I'm sure they could generate a definition for it, and on any given prompt they could probably even generate some generic-ish text that could pose as empathy, but so can a horoscope. But there is not the deep, continuous comprehension of the user as a separate thinking and feeling agent that is fundamental to the idea of theory of mind.

creer 3y ago
I think this branch of the discussion was granting an "of course, for the moment" on this because of the lack of loop / internal conversation. After that, the entire field of AI is about making bits and register transfers - a written form of knowledge - into something indistinguishable from the wet version. Making a priori and irreconcilably different "academic understanding" and "functional, meaningful understanding" is going to be a problem.