3 ms·

> Drive by wire kind of scares me Physical linkages break too.

by HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago

Yodel0914 3y ago
Yeah, but not from a bad firmware update
- geerlingguy 3y ago
  Yeah... I've encountered thousands of software bugs in my lifetime. Including with critical car systems like the gas pedal on my Toyota. I don't know anyone with a passenger car who's ever had the steering wheel linkage break to the point turning the steering wheel stopped affecting the wheels. I like the failsafe there. Hopefully at least the brake cylinder is still connected to the brake pedal mechanically?
- kube-system 3y ago
  But firmware doesn't rust and snap or burst, like I've experienced on other vehicles. Cutting corners is cutting corners. Build cheap firmware or use materials with poor corrosion resistance and you get problems.
  - Yodel0914 3y ago
    It's much harder (impossible, really) for a owner to mitigate against firmware bugs, though. Regularly servicing and inspection should prevent/detect the vast majority of major mechanical issues, not to mention than many are slow-onset. A firmware bug just happens, and there's no way (as an owner) to detect it beforehand.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      Software isn’t unpredictable. Issues that are known can be resolved. Unknown hardware issues are just as bad, and they do happen. Most safety recalls are mechanical in nature today. Fly-by-wire systems in airplanes are way more complicated than cars and they have excellent safety records, which even improved as those systems became widespread. The reason so much bad software exists in the world is because of the prevalence of people writing software without an accredited engineering education, licensing, or regulation. Software can be good if built to the engineering standards expected of any other engineering discipline.
palemoonale 3y ago
Has this ever happened to you? Good god, i want less SW in a car, not more. W/o power steering i can at least control a vehicle, only the brake pressure lost is a serious problem. Same with keyless starters, i remember this story about some French car experiencing a kind of highway run-off that couldn't be stopped due to this BS solution to a non-existing problem. "But hey, that's not innovative enough"
- grogenaut 3y ago
  Yes, I've had: - cruise get stuck on, car didn't have disable cruise on breaks - gas pedal stuck under seat mat - gas pedal siezed on due to cable issue - brake pedal failure to master cylinder - steering wheel slipping during turns - shift lever disconnect - breaks failed due to cracked rotor - breaks failed due to leaking master cylinder shit breaks a lot when you'e been driving for 35+ years
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  Yup. Got a set of Saturn Vue gearshift linkage cables in the garage because one broke and left the car in a non-drivable state and it had to be towed home. I have the entire assemblies because I was able to get by with just replacing the broken part and not entire cable going through the firewall. I could go through a list of critical mechanical systems that have broken on cars I've driven over the years, including my beloved Toyota pickup. > i want less SW in a car, not more I just want Good Engineering Practice. Good engineering encompasses a lot, including doing a DFMEA (Design Failure Modes Effects Analysis) that will advise whether the software system is safer than the hardware linkage or vice versa.

> Drive by wire kind of scares me Physical linkages break too.

Yodel0914 3y ago

Yeah, but not from a bad firmware update

geerlingguy 3y ago
Yeah... I've encountered thousands of software bugs in my lifetime. Including with critical car systems like the gas pedal on my Toyota. I don't know anyone with a passenger car who's ever had the steering wheel linkage break to the point turning the steering wheel stopped affecting the wheels. I like the failsafe there. Hopefully at least the brake cylinder is still connected to the brake pedal mechanically?
kube-system 3y ago
But firmware doesn't rust and snap or burst, like I've experienced on other vehicles. Cutting corners is cutting corners. Build cheap firmware or use materials with poor corrosion resistance and you get problems.
- Yodel0914 3y ago
  It's much harder (impossible, really) for a owner to mitigate against firmware bugs, though. Regularly servicing and inspection should prevent/detect the vast majority of major mechanical issues, not to mention than many are slow-onset. A firmware bug just happens, and there's no way (as an owner) to detect it beforehand.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Software isn’t unpredictable. Issues that are known can be resolved. Unknown hardware issues are just as bad, and they do happen. Most safety recalls are mechanical in nature today. Fly-by-wire systems in airplanes are way more complicated than cars and they have excellent safety records, which even improved as those systems became widespread. The reason so much bad software exists in the world is because of the prevalence of people writing software without an accredited engineering education, licensing, or regulation. Software can be good if built to the engineering standards expected of any other engineering discipline.

palemoonale 3y ago

Has this ever happened to you? Good god, i want less SW in a car, not more. W/o power steering i can at least control a vehicle, only the brake pressure lost is a serious problem. Same with keyless starters, i remember this story about some French car experiencing a kind of highway run-off that couldn't be stopped due to this BS solution to a non-existing problem. "But hey, that's not innovative enough"

grogenaut 3y ago
Yes, I've had: - cruise get stuck on, car didn't have disable cruise on breaks - gas pedal stuck under seat mat - gas pedal siezed on due to cable issue - brake pedal failure to master cylinder - steering wheel slipping during turns - shift lever disconnect - breaks failed due to cracked rotor - breaks failed due to leaking master cylinder shit breaks a lot when you'e been driving for 35+ years
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
Yup. Got a set of Saturn Vue gearshift linkage cables in the garage because one broke and left the car in a non-drivable state and it had to be towed home. I have the entire assemblies because I was able to get by with just replacing the broken part and not entire cable going through the firewall. I could go through a list of critical mechanical systems that have broken on cars I've driven over the years, including my beloved Toyota pickup. > i want less SW in a car, not more I just want Good Engineering Practice. Good engineering encompasses a lot, including doing a DFMEA (Design Failure Modes Effects Analysis) that will advise whether the software system is safer than the hardware linkage or vice versa.