4 ms·

I don't think I get this one, either. Not like I personally want to be surveilled or anything, but for better or worse, the TSA inherently has to use facial rec

I don't think I get this one, either. Not like I personally want to be surveilled or anything, but for better or worse, the TSA inherently has to use facial recognition because they're required right now to check your ID and see that you look roughly similar enough to the picture on it and the name matches the boarding pass to let you through without further questioning. The way this is titled right now isn't even accurate. They're not trying to ban facial recognition. They're just banning the automation of it. The automated facial recognition service they currently offer also isn't mandatory. Anyone that uses it is doing so voluntarily. They're banning people from volunteering to pay the cost of being added to a database in return for saving a few minutes at security checkpoints. Why not ban precheck then? Is it less invasive to have your fingerprints in a database compared to having a scan of your face in one?

greyface- 3y ago
> they're required right now to check your ID Can you provide a citation for this requirement? I.e. a law, not an administrative decision made unilaterally by the TSA?
- robcohen 3y ago
  REAL ID act: "OFFICIAL PURPOSE- The term `official purpose' includes but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine. " https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf
  - greyface- 3y ago
    This does not have the effect you claim it does. Despite significant efforts, the airport ID checking component of REAL ID has not gone into effect, after decades of can-kicking and playing chicken with individual states that haven't implemented REAL ID locally. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/12/05/dhs-announces-extension-real-id-full-enforcement-deadline https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/12/05/dhs-announces-extension-...
    - robcohen 3y ago
      Laws don't have to be enforced, but it's still the law. You asked for a law, and REAL ID is one. Although it isn't fully enforced, the provision for an ID is fully enforced. It's just not required to be a REAL ID, but an ID is required.
      - greyface- 3y ago
        > the provision for an ID is fully enforced Which provision, specifically, are you referring to? The REAL ID pdf you linked does not contain a "provision for an ID" in airports separate from 202(a)(1), which is not yet in effect, and will likely get snoozed for a few years again in 2025. Furthermore, even if it were in effect today, it would not require the checking of IDs; it merely prohibits the checking of non-REAL IDs.
    - yummypaint 3y ago
      There is a simple experiment you can do to test this yourself. Just attempt to board a US domestic flight without showing any personal identification. You will most certainly not be allowed through security.
      - greyface- 3y ago
        The outcome is obvious - I'll be denied boarding. What that doesn't tell me, and what I was asking upthread, is whether anyone can provide a statutory justification for this, or if it's just TSA arbitrarily exercising power.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - snakeyjake 3y ago
        >You will most certainly not be allowed through security. Yes you will be. I did it. Me. Personally. If you show up at the airport and your wallet is 200 miles away and your flight is in 45 minutes they will, unquestionably, irrefutably, let you onto your flight. Step 1: Go to the counter and tell them you don't have your ID. Step 2: They typey-type on their computer and print out some stuff. Step 3: You take that stuff to TSA and they ask you some questions like "what is your address? what is your date of birth? and things like that" Step 4: They wave you through and you go to your gate and wait to board. I was told that it is not uncommon for people to forget or lose their IDs.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    You can fly without ID provided you can answer questions correctly. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/i-forgot-my-identification-can-i-still-proceed-through-security https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/i-forg...
ramblenode 3y ago
> They're just banning the automation of it. The automated facial recognition service they currently offer also isn't mandatory. Anyone that uses it is doing so voluntarily. For someone concerned about mandatory face scanning, there is a good argument against permitting the TSA to do voluntary face scanning, which is that the voluntary often becomes the mandatory. As an analogy, consider doing business with the government. Many government agencies will only do business with you if you have a phone number (increasingly an app) and pay with credit or debit card, all practices that started out as voluntary conveniences but morphed into requirements. You could describe this process in a variety of ways, depending on how much agency and malevolence you want to ascribe to the decision makers: "ratchet effect", "slippery slope", "boiling the frog", etc. Regardless of name, the process tends to look like this: first give people the option to do B instead of A. Then give people an incentive to do B. Then, once most people are doing B, deprioritize A (which makes it inconvenient). Finally, remove option A when there are only a few people left to complain. The TSA is already pushing the envelope with PreCheck and adding more categories to the No Fly List. It works very well. Consider your comment: "but for better or worse, the TSA inherently has to use facial recognition because they're required right now to check your ID" (emphasis mine). Your logic isn't wrong, but it's starting from the premise of how to better serve what is being done right now rather than what should be done. Consider that the US only started requring airlines to check IDs a few years before 9/11, and personal identification is only indirectly related to the security of an airplane (why there's all those people checking your shoes despite knowing your name and face). The effect of airport IDing is mainly as a tool for law enforcement interdiction and to bolster airline profits by preventing ticket switching. Similarly, after the TSA has built a national database of face models, there is no reason this data has to be used primarily for airline security.

greyface- 3y ago

> they're required right now to check your ID Can you provide a citation for this requirement? I.e. a law, not an administrative decision made unilaterally by the TSA?

robcohen 3y ago
REAL ID act: "OFFICIAL PURPOSE- The term `official purpose' includes but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine. " https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf
- greyface- 3y ago
  This does not have the effect you claim it does. Despite significant efforts, the airport ID checking component of REAL ID has not gone into effect, after decades of can-kicking and playing chicken with individual states that haven't implemented REAL ID locally. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/12/05/dhs-announces-extension-real-id-full-enforcement-deadline https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/12/05/dhs-announces-extension-...
  - robcohen 3y ago
    Laws don't have to be enforced, but it's still the law. You asked for a law, and REAL ID is one. Although it isn't fully enforced, the provision for an ID is fully enforced. It's just not required to be a REAL ID, but an ID is required.
    - greyface- 3y ago
      > the provision for an ID is fully enforced Which provision, specifically, are you referring to? The REAL ID pdf you linked does not contain a "provision for an ID" in airports separate from 202(a)(1), which is not yet in effect, and will likely get snoozed for a few years again in 2025. Furthermore, even if it were in effect today, it would not require the checking of IDs; it merely prohibits the checking of non-REAL IDs.
  - yummypaint 3y ago
    There is a simple experiment you can do to test this yourself. Just attempt to board a US domestic flight without showing any personal identification. You will most certainly not be allowed through security.
    - greyface- 3y ago
      The outcome is obvious - I'll be denied boarding. What that doesn't tell me, and what I was asking upthread, is whether anyone can provide a statutory justification for this, or if it's just TSA arbitrarily exercising power.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - snakeyjake 3y ago
      >You will most certainly not be allowed through security. Yes you will be. I did it. Me. Personally. If you show up at the airport and your wallet is 200 miles away and your flight is in 45 minutes they will, unquestionably, irrefutably, let you onto your flight. Step 1: Go to the counter and tell them you don't have your ID. Step 2: They typey-type on their computer and print out some stuff. Step 3: You take that stuff to TSA and they ask you some questions like "what is your address? what is your date of birth? and things like that" Step 4: They wave you through and you go to your gate and wait to board. I was told that it is not uncommon for people to forget or lose their IDs.
- nullindividual 3y ago
  You can fly without ID provided you can answer questions correctly. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/i-forgot-my-identification-can-i-still-proceed-through-security https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/i-forg...

ramblenode 3y ago

> They're just banning the automation of it. The automated facial recognition service they currently offer also isn't mandatory. Anyone that uses it is doing so voluntarily. For someone concerned about mandatory face scanning, there is a good argument against permitting the TSA to do voluntary face scanning, which is that the voluntary often becomes the mandatory. As an analogy, consider doing business with the government. Many government agencies will only do business with you if you have a phone number (increasingly an app) and pay with credit or debit card, all practices that started out as voluntary conveniences but morphed into requirements. You could describe this process in a variety of ways, depending on how much agency and malevolence you want to ascribe to the decision makers: "ratchet effect", "slippery slope", "boiling the frog", etc. Regardless of name, the process tends to look like this: first give people the option to do B instead of A. Then give people an incentive to do B. Then, once most people are doing B, deprioritize A (which makes it inconvenient). Finally, remove option A when there are only a few people left to complain. The TSA is already pushing the envelope with PreCheck and adding more categories to the No Fly List. It works very well. Consider your comment: "but for better or worse, the TSA inherently has to use facial recognition because they're required right now to check your ID" (emphasis mine). Your logic isn't wrong, but it's starting from the premise of how to better serve what is being done right now rather than what should be done. Consider that the US only started requring airlines to check IDs a few years before 9/11, and personal identification is only indirectly related to the security of an airplane (why there's all those people checking your shoes despite knowing your name and face). The effect of airport IDing is mainly as a tool for law enforcement interdiction and to bolster airline profits by preventing ticket switching. Similarly, after the TSA has built a national database of face models, there is no reason this data has to be used primarily for airline security.